Thursday, September 15, 2011

Some varieties of atheism

A religion typically has both practical and theoretical aspects.  The former concern its moral teachings and rituals, the latter its metaphysical commitments and the way in which its practical teachings are systematically articulated.  An atheist will naturally reject not only the theoretical aspects, but also the practical ones, at least to the extent that they presuppose the theoretical aspects.  But different atheists will take different attitudes to each of the two aspects, ranging from respectful or even regretful disagreement to extreme hostility.  And distinguishing these various possible attitudes can help us to understand how the New Atheism differs from earlier varieties.

Consider first the different attitudes an atheist might take to the theoretical side of a religion.  There are at least three such attitudes, which, going from the most hostile to the least hostile, could be summarized as follows:

1. Religious belief has no serious intellectual content at all.  It is and always has been little more than superstition, the arguments offered in its defense have always been feeble rationalizations, and its claims are easily refuted.

2. Religious belief does have serious intellectual content, has been developed in interesting and sophisticated ways by philosophers and theologians, and was defensible given the scientific and philosophical knowledge available to previous generations.  But advances in science and philosophy have now more or less decisively refuted it.  Though we can respect the intelligence of an Aquinas or a Maimonides, we can no longer take their views seriously as live options.

3. Religious belief is still intellectually defensible today, but not as defensible as atheism.  An intelligent and well-informed person could be persuaded by the arguments presented by the most sophisticated contemporary proponents of a religion, but the arguments of atheists are at the end of the day more plausible.

Obviously one could take one of these attitudes towards some religions, and another of them towards other religions.  For example, a given atheist might take a type 1 atheist position with respect to Christianity and a type 2 atheist position with respect to Buddhism (or whatever).  Or he might take a type 1 attitude towards some versions of Christianity but a type 2 or type 3 attitude towards other versions of Christianity.

Now, among well-known atheists, it seems to me that Quentin Smith is plausibly to be regarded as taking a type 3 attitude toward Christianity, at least as Christianity is represented by prominent philosophers of religion like William Lane Craig or Alvin Plantinga.  Keith Parsons, by contrast, seems to take at best a type 2 attitude towards Christianity and maybe even a type 1 attitude.  And Jerry Coyne seems almost certainly to take a type 1 attitude, though perhaps on a good day and with respect to at least some varieties of religious belief he’d move up to type 2.  (I’m happy to be corrected by Smith, Parsons, or Coyne if I’ve got any of them pegged wrong.)

Now let’s consider three different attitudes an atheist could take toward the practical side of a religion, going again from the most hostile to the least hostile:

A. Religious practice is mostly or entirely contemptible and something we would all be well rid of.  The ritual side of religion is just crude and pointless superstition.  Religious morality, where it differs from secular morality, is sheer bigotry.  Even where certain moral principles associated with a particular religion have value, their association with the religion is merely an accident of history.  Moreover, such principles tend to be distorted by the religious context.  They certainly do not in any way depend on religion for their justification.

B. Religious practice has a certain admirable gravitas and it is possible that its ritual and moral aspects fulfill a real human need for some people.  We can treat it respectfully, the way an anthropologist might treat the practices of a culture he is studying.  But it does not fulfill any universal human need, and the most intelligent, well educated, and morally sophisticated human beings certainly have no need for it.  

C. Religious practice fulfills a truly universal or nearly universal human need, but unfortunately it has no rational foundation and its metaphysical presuppositions are probably false.  This is a tragedy, for the loss of religious belief will make human life shallower and in other ways leave a gaping void in our lives which cannot plausibly be filled by anything else.  It may even have grave social consequences.  But it is something we must find a way to live with, for atheism is intellectually unavoidable.

Here too a given atheist might of course take attitude A towards some religions or some forms of a particular religion, while taking attitude B or C towards others.  Once again, Jerry Coyne seems to be an example of an atheist whose attitude toward religion lays more or less at the most negative end (A).  Perhaps Stephen Jay Gould took something like attitude B.  Atheists of a politically or morally conservative bent typically take either attitude B or attitude C (though I know at least one prominent conservative who is probably closer to attitude A).  Walter Kaufmann is another good example of an atheist (or at least an agnostic) who took something like attitude B towards at least some forms of religion.  Indeed, he seemed to regard religion as something that speaks to deep human needs and whose moral aspects are of great and abiding philosophical interest.

Now these two sets of possible attitudes can obviously be mixed in a number of ways.  That is to say, a given atheist might take a more negative attitude towards the theoretical side of a given religion and a more positive attitude towards its practical side, or vice versa.  And he might take different mixtures of attitudes towards different religions or forms of religion.  For instance, he might take attitudes 2 and C towards some kinds of religious belief, and 1 and A towards other kinds.  Thus we could classify atheists according to their combinations of attitudes towards the practical and theoretical sides of religion or of a particular religion -- A1, B3, C2, and so forth.  

An A1 atheist, then, would be the most negative sort, especially if he took an A1 attitude towards most or all forms of religion.  A C3 atheist would be the most positive.  At different times during my own years as an atheist, I would say that I tended to take either a B or C attitude towards the practical side of religion, and perhaps attitude 2 towards the theoretical side (at least until the latter part of my atheist years, when I started to move to 3 before finally giving up atheism).  No doubt I had moments when I probably came across as more of an attitude 1 and/or attitude A type atheist with respect to at least some forms of religious belief -- it’s easier to remember specific arguments with people than what one’s general attitude was during a given year, say -- but overall I’d say that I probably hovered around B2 territory for at least much of my time as an atheist.  (Walter Kaufmann was one of my heroes in those days.  Indeed, Kaufmann’s attitude towards Christianity -- which was more negative than his attitude towards other religions -- influenced my own, and no doubt helped delay my eventual return to the Church.)

I find that atheists who fall on the most negative ends of these scales -- A1 territory -- are invariably the ones who are the least well-informed about what the religions they criticize actually believe, and the least rational when one tries to discuss the subject with them.  And when you think about it, even before one gets into the specifics it is pretty clear that A1 is prima facie simply not a very reasonable attitude to take about at least the great world religions.  To think that it is reasonable, you have to think it plausible that the greatest minds of entire civilizations -- Augustine, Aquinas, Maimonides, Avicenna, Averroes, Lao Tzu, Confucius, Mencius, Buddha, Adi Shankara, Ramanuja, et al. -- had for millennia been defending theoretical and practical positions that were not merely mistaken but were in fact nothing more than sheer bigotry and superstition, more or less rationally groundless and morally out of sync with the deepest human needs.  And that simply isn’t plausible.  Indeed, it’s pretty obviously ridiculous.  Even if all religious belief turned out to be wrong, it simply is not at all likely that its key aspects -- and especially those aspects that recur in most or all religions -- could have survived for so long across so many cultures and attracted the respect of so many intelligent minds unless they had some significant appeal both to our intellectual and moral natures.  Hence a reasonable atheist should acknowledge that it is likely that attitudes 2 or 3 and B or C are the more defensible attitudes to take towards at least the ideas of the greatest religious thinkers and the most highly developed systems of religious thought and practice. 

When one considers the prima facie implausibility of the A1 attitude together with the ill-informed smugness and irrationality of those who approximate it, it is pretty clear that its roots are not intellectual but emotional -- that it affords those beholden to it a sense of superiority over others, an enemy on which to direct their hatreds and resentments, a way to rationalize their rejection of certain moral restraints they dislike, and so forth.  In other words, A1 atheism is pretty much exactly the sort of ill-informed bigotry and wish-fulfillment A1 atheists like to attribute to religious believers.

And here’s the thing: If there is anything new about the New Atheism, it is the greater prominence of atheists who at least approximate the A1 stripe.  In Walter Kaufmann’s day, A1 atheism was represented by marginal, vulgar cranks like Madalyn Murray O’Hair.   Now, equally vulgar cranks like Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, Myers, and Coyne are by no means marginal, but widely regarded as Serious Thinkers.  This is the reverse of intellectual progress.  And we know what Walter Kaufmann would have thought of it.

741 comments:

  1. "It is conceptually impossible for these abilities to have evolved naturally."

    Daniel Smith,

    I agree that that is an idiotic premise. But that is exactly the type of argument Feser makes all the time.

    So, you took the bait.

    Your argument is now with Feser.

    Thanks for playing.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Unless you are going to claim that “professional philosophers” do not argue about the philosophy of logic or science, or do not argue epistemology or ontology, then whether or not one is a “professional philosopher” has nothing to do with it. All evidence, in every field of inquiry, is established and interpreted according to some ontologically and epistemologically supported process, most of which has been argued for centuries.

    Because one takes their particular process for granted, or is unaware of the philosophical warrant for that process hammered out by those that preceded them (Plato, Aristotle, Descartes, etc.), doesn’t mean that their evidential methodology can be detached from the a priori assumptions and groundings that authorize and support it.

    Just identifying something to be used as evidence requires the philosophy of the principle of identity, of non-contradiction, and the excluded middle, as well as epistemological and ontological assumptions about the nature of being and of how we know what we know. Every time you assume something you see exists outside of your mind, you have made a philosophical assumption. Every time you believe that an empirical measurement can be classified as “knowledge”; you have performed a philosophical act.


    William J Murray on September 17, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    In an argument over philosophy in another forum. So there! We are all philosophers, now!

    ReplyDelete
  3. BenYachov,

    "The argument for Gremlins is nothing more than an argument for or against the existence of another being along side other beings."

    As if it makes one shred of difference if the invisible being(s) are along side, under, over, or inside every atom.

    ReplyDelete
  4. djindra,

    Thanks for pointing that out. I was giving my audience too much credit. For those who did not get it, my argument for gremlins is supposed to be idiotic.

    So dissecting it and showing how it fails is simply bolstering my point.

    ReplyDelete
  5. "So the existence of invisible, undetectable, Sudoku playing gremlins is consistent with your metaphysics?"

    Of course. The existence of undetectable beings is consistent with any metaphysics, including atheism. As such, A-T metaphysics finds nothing of interest to say about the matter. However its central concern is the examination of the ground of being rather than speculation about invisible beings among beings, so your objection, such as it is, is doubly irrelevant.

    Being that the existence of "invisible, undetectable, Sudoku playing gremlins" or "invisible skittle-crapping unicorns" is consistent with atheism, are we then to conclude that atheism is dismissible as a joke?

    Another point: all this is a little rich coming from someone who quite probably regards the existence of an infinite ensemble of undetectable parallel universes to be the answer to the cosmological fine-tuning problem. For surely, in all of these universes there exists at least one skittle-crapping unicorn.

    ReplyDelete
  6. djindra: "I guess it went right over your head that BeingItself was constructing a more or less accurate parody of what passes for logic in things like Philosophy of Mind and TLS."

    OK, well I went back and re-read the original claim by BeingItself:
    "I could easily construct a feserian type philosophical argument for the existence of my head dancing gremlins.

    The evidence for my gremlins and the evidence for Feser's immaterial god injected soul are exactly the same: none at all."


    So I was a little mistaken in that I assumed this was about the "existence of God" argument and not "the implanting of the soul".

    Nevertheless...

    One problem here is that, while Ed carefully laid out the rational case for the existence of God, and the immaterial soul first, then extrapolated a theoretical event (the implanting of that soul into the first humans) built upon that, BeingItself has provided no rational basis for the existence of "Sudoku-weh", nor has he made a serious rational case for "implanted undetectable gremlins on the heads of humans which gives them Sudoku playing abilities".

    So, it may be a parody, but it is not - in any way - accurate.

    ReplyDelete
  7. "I guess it went right over your head that BeingItself was constructing a more or less accurate parody of what passes for logic in things like Philosophy of Mind and TLS."

    What nonsense. As Daniel Smith pointed out (and as I implied), Beingitself's 'argument' fails horribly and obviously, in a number of ways. Not a single argument professor Feser presents in any of his books is remotely like it (except, of course, when he's directly quoting Dawkins et al).

    In other words, it fails as a parody just as poorly as it fails as an argument, which is saying something.

    ReplyDelete
  8. BeingItself: "It is conceptually impossible for these abilities to have evolved naturally."

    "I agree that that is an idiotic premise. But that is exactly the type of argument Feser makes all the time."


    First, I did not call that premise "idiotic", I called it "controversial". Some people may very well find it conceptually impossible. (Your argument would have been better if you would have preceded that premise with an "If".)

    What is "idiotic" though, is jumping from those premises to that conclusion (undetectable gremlins).

    Ed doesn't do idiotic things like that. In fact, I challenge you to find an argument as idiotic as that one submitted by Dr. Feser anywhere.

    ReplyDelete
  9. The one built by Young Earth Creationists with Engineering degrees who do not believe Reality is something that can only be known by science alone sans philosophy.

    ahh... but he is still using the philosophy of Empiricism to build the bridge. He may believe that the world cannot be defined just through empirical research, but he still relies on the principals of Empiricism while building the bridge (at least I'd hope so... I'd much prefer to drive across a bridge where someone had done the calculations to ensure that the bridge would hold my car then someone who threw some 2x4's together and prayed that it would hold my car).

    Like my hypothetical Gnu Atheist who denies the existence Andromeda galaxy because he can't see it under his microscope example

    Sounds more like a theist then an atheist... Accepting only truth that comes from one tool and refusing to entertain any evidence to the contrary.

    Nor is it necessary to believe this philosophy to use a microscope. Nor is the use of a microscope a practical manifestation of this philosophy.

    But to 'use' the microscope you are accepting that the microscope can reveal 'truth'... otherwise there is no point in looking through it.

    Thus the practice of science or the use of engineering principles to construct technology is not a practical manifestation of Empiricist philosophy. It really has nothing to do with it I'm sorry.

    Don't be... as you are rather wrong. Unless the practitioner of science or the user of engineering is inserting non-empirical they are agreeing that empiricism is the only way to practice science or use engineering... in short agreeing with the empiricists.

    Oh, and I could always hook a telescope up to the microscopist's microscope to show him Andromeda.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Premise 2: It is conceptually impossible for these abilities to have evolved naturally.

    Controversial and not undeniably true. (The syllogism fails here, but we'll continue for the fun of it...)


    Hold on now... playing Sudoku is quite a rational act. Which is usually defined as something that comes from the soul. So if this fails then so do arguments that rational thought requires a soul.

    This does not follow from the premises - even if both premises were true. Your attempt at an argument for the existence of Sudoku-weh fails.

    How does his argument differ from arguments that the Christian deity ensouled two people out of thousands of non-souled (but genetically equivalent to those with souls) hominids?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Daniel Smith,

    "One problem here is that, while Ed carefully laid out the rational case for the existence of God, and the immaterial soul first, then extrapolated a theoretical event (the implanting of that soul into the first humans) built upon that, BeingItself has provided no rational basis for the existence of 'Sudoku-weh', nor has he made a serious rational case for 'implanted undetectable gremlins on the heads of humans which gives them Sudoku playing abilities'."

    That is the issue. Did Aquinas or Feser lay out a rational case for the existence of God? That case depends on believing that matter cannot support its own existence, but God can support its own existence. That assumption cannot be supported by reason. That doesn't make it false, but it's false to claim it's rational.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Hi Jason,

    Thanks for your comments. Re: Dawkins, yes, I think you're right that his attitude toward Paley-style design arguments is 2 rather than 1. Good point. Still, his attitude towards other arguments, and especially those of Aquinas, is clearly 1 rather than 2. And this is significant for two reasons. First, the Aquinas-style arguments (together with Neo-Platonic arguments), rather than the Paley style ones, have been the mainstream ones in the theological tradition and remained so long after Paley in e.g. Roman Catholic contexts. Paley's significance is vastly exaggerated by people like Dawkins, no doubt because Paley was addressing something they know about -- biology -- and Aquinas and other classical theologians were not (in their arguments for God's existence, that is).

    Second, Dawkins very badly misunderstands arguments like Aquinas's because of his scientism. He assumes that they are (like design arguments often are) attempts at empirical theorizing, when in fact they take as their starting points metaphysical claims about what all empirical theorizing would have to presuppose. They claim to go deeper than empirical science. (He makes many other grave errors too.) Hence he fundamentally misunderstands the whole classical theological tradition, which is no small thing. It isn't just some minor school of thought he's gotten wrong. It's the philosophical underpinnings of Catholic, Orthodox, and much Protestant thought that he simply doesn't engage at all.

    And re: the reasons for his scientism, I don't see that he has any. He (and Coyne) just argue under the assumption that science has somehow long ago proved all this metaphysics stuff wrong and/or that any serious form of rational inquiry must be a branch of empirical scientific inquiry, and go from there. And when one tries to get them to see the serious philosophical questions and problems this raises, they just respond with mockery. Their scientism is simply not well informed, and they are not even aware that there are many mainstream philosophers with no traditional theological ax to grind (and who would no doubt disagree strongly with many of my views) -- Thomas Nagel, Barry Stroud, Tyler Burge, John McDowell, Hilary Putnam, Paul Feyerabend, and the list could go on and on -- who have raised serious objections to the scientism and naturalism that New Atheists smugly take for granted. Dawkins and Co. have simply not earned the right to be as haughty as they are. (Which is, as I have said, the only reason I have answered their mockery with mockery, because I think it is important that their ill-informed bluster not be afforded the respectability it has achieved in some quarters. I do not, and would not, take such an approach with serious atheists.)

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete
  13. djindra: "Did Aquinas or Feser lay out a rational case for the existence of God?"

    Yes.

    "That case depends on believing that matter cannot support its own existence"

    Others here are more versed in this than I... but I would say: Yes, part of the case is that something that did not always exist must be caused by something other than itself.

    "but God can support its own existence."

    More correctly that "existence itself" exists without need for anything else.

    "That assumption cannot be supported by reason."

    Yes it can. In fact it is entirely reasonable.

    "That doesn't make it false, but it's false to claim it's rational."

    I don't think you understand it.

    ReplyDelete
  14. (continued)

    The question of why metaphysics doesn't attain the consensus empirical science has is important. Before I address it, though, it is important to emphasize that it really isn't relevant to our dispute in the way you seem to think it is. You seem to think that since metaphysics is controversial to an extent that Newtonian mechanics is not, this somehow poses an obvious problem for theologians and leaves those committed to scientism with the upper hand. But it does no such thing. For claims like science alone is a rational form of inquiry or even science is a more reliable form of inquiry than metaphysics or forms of inquiry that attain such-and-such a level of consensus are likely to be more reliable than other forms are themselves all metaphysical claims, not empirical ones!

    So, scientism's upper hand is illusory and the defender of scientism is in fact in exactly the same boat as his critic. This is something E. A. Burtt -- who was no apologist for the sorts of views I represent -- pointed out long ago in his important book The Metaphysical Foundations of Modern Physical Science. He emphasized that those who think they can avoid metaphysics are not only laboring under an illusion, but a particularly dangerous one, because in fact they cannot avoid doing metaphysics but will do it very badly precisely because they will insist that they are not doing it. Their metaphysics is bound to be unreflective and muddleheaded. The New Atheism constitutes a fulfillment of his prophecy.

    As to why there is not more consensus on metaphysical questions, that is a complicated issue. Part of the reason science has greater "success" in this regard is precisely because it has limited itself to questions where such consensus is possible. In particular, it focuses on those aspects of nature susceptible of mathematical modeling, for this is where strict prediction and control are possible. Naturally, it is going to be successful wherever there are such aspects of nature to be found, and there are many. The fallacy of scientism, though, is to infer from this that there are no other aspects of nature. This is like the drunk who says that we should look for the car keys only under the street lamp, since that's where the light is best, and who ridicules anyone who looks elsewhere because they will inevitably have a harder time seeing.

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete
  15. (continued)

    The disagreement that exists within contemporary metaphysics is also to some extent historically contingent and was largely created by scientism rather than being grounds for scientism. That is to say, to a very large extent the history of ancient and medieval philosophy is a history of growing consensus around a broad Platonic-Aristotelian axis. Plato and Aristotle essentially refined the tradition they inherited, purging it of errors and working its lasting insights out in more systematic ways. Subsequent to them Neo-Platonists and Aristotelians developed the systems further, always trying to take on as much of the alternative tendency as possible -- hence Neo-Platonists tried to "Platonize" Aristotle and Aristotelians like Aquinas take on board and "Aristotelianized" certain Neo-Platonic ideas. They were unified in their commitment to realism about universals, to certain notions about causality, to certain ideas in ethics, etc.

    The revolution of the moderns, which put in place the "mechanistic" philosophy of nature that underlies scientism, shattered this unity and the result was a bewildering variety of competing systems -- Cartesianism, Spinozism, Leibnizian monadology, Berkeleian idealism, Kantianism, and on and on. The result was to give the false appearance that metaphysical questions somehow have an inherent tendency toward a radical diversity of answers, when in fact many of the modern competing alternatives are a consequence of certain philosophical assumptions introduced by moderns like Descartes and Locke, and their vehement rejection of the more complex and subtle system of the Scholastics.

    The situation is comparable to the situation in ehtic described by Alasdair MacIntyre. MacIntyre famously argues that the intractable character of moral debates in modern life is largely an artifact of certain contingent philosophical assumptions introduced by the early moderns, and does not reflect ethical discoure per se. I claim that the same thing is true of metaphysics, and I spell the theme out in more detail in TLS.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Dr. Feser,

    Other than your book, TLS, what are some solid works devoted to expounding a philosophy of nature, in particular those that address contemporary scientific concerns? In our day and age of quantum mechanical weirdness and physics that bristles with mathematical complexity totally out of a layman's reach and that often yields paradoxical results, it's hard to know where to start in determining how much stock should be placed in things like a strict "philosophy of nature."

    ReplyDelete
  17. djindra,

    “science -- derogatorily referred to as scientism”

    Hang on! I don’t think that’s the generally accepted definition of scientism. Scientism is (a philosopher could do this better, and I’m happy to be corrected) the belief that the only questions worth asking are questions answerable by the scientific method.

    Now, leave aside all other issues for a moment – do you think that scientism, thus stated, is true or false? That’s the question you and others need to answer, if a debate is actually going to start.

    You might not feel it is an important question, but people who disagree with you do, so this could be a chance to establish common ground.

    By the way, re non-apologetic Christian books, if you’re a poetry lover then how about Eliot’s ‘Four Quartets’?

    ReplyDelete
  18. >ahh... but he is still using the philosophy of Empiricism to build the bridge.

    No he is merely using the science of engineering in a practical manner to make a bridge. Historically philosophy served as the basis for the development of science but it doesn't require philosophy to directly construct a bridge much less Empiricist philosophy.

    This is the fallacy of equivocation the Philosophy of Empiricism is not the same as the science of engineering. That is like saying if you do biology you are doing physics. Well they are related but they are not unequivocally compared.

    >Don't be... as you are rather wrong. Unless the practitioner of science or the user of engineering is inserting non-empirical they are agreeing that empiricism is the only way to practice science or use engineering... in short agreeing with the empiricists.

    I don't agree with the Protestant that the Bible is the sole rule of faith just because I cite the Bible as an authority. Just because I build a bridge doesn't mean I am saying only via empiricism can I know reality. I can use the scientific method to learn about possible feats of engineering but it doesn't follow I believe only via science I can know anything about reality. Otherwise pointing out we examine empirical facts to come to empirical conclusions is merely trivia. I can use mathematical methods to come to Mathematical truths without concluding Math is the sole means by which we may know all true.

    Science alone is not the sole means of natural knowledge. Philosophy is needed as well as well as Logic, math etc.

    Scientism is not science. Just as Sola Scriptura isn't the Bible.

    ReplyDelete
  19. I'm afraid Dr. Feser is right and I might add you can no more salvage Scientism/Positivism as a philosophy then you can rescue Global Flood Theory.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Jason,

    You're framing it as if Ed is saying here that science is in some way false or that everyone agrees about metaphysics and less people agree about science. None of that is happening. Metaphysical inquiry is just identifying Why science Can be predictive or even true. His claim is simply that empiricism or whatever you want to call it can't hold up without metaphysical assumptions. In that way metaphysics is "more well established."

    Do not take "more well established" to mean something like "everyone can agree that this explanation of metaphysics is right when talking about science." He doesn't mean that. He means something like "the assumption that X has a cause and can produce a particular effect is very well established when attempting empirical inquiry."

    Those assumptions are metaphysical in nature. If you don't address those assumptions, you haven't really answered the metaphysical arguments that follow from them (via Aristotle or Aquinas or whomever) at all. It usually goes something like this: "Science keeps showing that when X happens, Y follows. Everyone in the world agrees about that. It's true. Way more people agree about that than whether Plato or Aristotle is correct." The person concerned with metaphysics would answer, "Of course that's true; no one is even disagreeing about that, but why does Y always follow X?"

    Not to speak for Ed too much here, but I feel like a lot of his beef (and I think it's justified) is that people of the modern (and often atheist) ilk think they can just stop short before making any real inquiry into their assumptions. They would either not be concerned with the "Why does Y always follow X?" question or say "it just does" and not follow that to its philosophical end. And the worst of them would ridicule or mock people who do try to address those assumptions by saying things like, "Modern science has shown that all of that metaphysical stuff is unnecessary or just plain stupid; you're being unscientific, just like the rest of the religious sheep."

    What's most frustrating, of course, is that modern science has done nothing of the sort to "refute" metaphysical arguments, and more, Can't do anything of the sort. (What's also frustrating, as Ed points out, is the assumption that something is just flat out false if it is "unempirical"---except the wholly unempirical argument that only empirical things scientifically arrived at count as true, of course). Science, as it's usually framed, is simply not asking the right questions. And people who worship it are by extension unable to hear or consider any answers outside of their very limited mode of thinking.

    I again recommend trying to read The Last Superstition. Or you can read Feser's Aquinas if you really find it impossible to get through the polemical stuff. Although, to be totally honest, I don't get why everyone gets so upset about polemical works if they are making legitimate arguments. People are so sensitive these days. The people he ridicules in the book are making stupid arguments, and most honest people can see that, even without any philosophical training at all. They should be called out for doing so. Why is that so offensive to so many people?

    Anyway, I think both books are very good at addressing all of these issues much more fully than can be done in a comment box, though I really think TLS does a better job of framing the issue in a larger context.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Ben Yachov said:

    I'm afraid Dr. Feser is right and I might add you can no more salvage Scientism/Positivism as a philosophy then you can rescue Global Flood Theory.

    And your whole Aristotelian-Thomist theology is also likewise based on a number of premises which I think are largely if not entirely problematic, hypothetical, tenuous, and ephemeral if not outright illusions – notably the question as to whether a form can be a subsistent form – as illustrated by this comment from Bill Vallicella:

    The problem here, in short, is that there is a tension between soul as substantial form and soul as substantial subsistent form. Ontologically, one wants to protest, a form is not the sort of entity that could be subsistent. Necessarily, a form is a form of that of which it is the form. But a subsistent form is possibly such as to exist apart from that of which it is the form. These propositions cannot both be true.

    Good luck trying to salvage that. Without some grounding of your central premises in some actually existing real phenomena and facts or some corroboration in reality it looks to me like all you have is little more than some sort of a virtual reality Shangri-La. Sorry, no sale. At least Science/Logical-Positivism can actually show some tangible results and benefits.

    ReplyDelete
  22. "At least Science/Logical-Positivism can actually show some tangible results and benefits."

    And the only cost is that it contradicts itself. Not a problem as long as one refuses to listen.

    ReplyDelete
  23. "Without some grounding of your central premises in some actually existing real phenomena and facts or some corroboration in reality it looks to me like all you have is little more than some sort of a virtual reality Shangri-La."

    In A-T metaphysics we have what amounts to the simple premises:

    1. There cannot be an infinite chain of caused causes.

    2. No effect can have in it that which was not present in some way in the cause.

    Asserting that there is something flighty, ephemeral, and illusory about these premises is a tough sell, and I don't envy you in trying to make such a sale. In fact, I question why anyone would want to make such a sale.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Daniel Smith,

    "...part of the case is that something that did not always exist must be caused by something other than itself."

    Assuming that it didn't always exist. There's no good reason to assume it didn't exist. There is good reason to believe it's eternally changing but that's not the same thing as non-existence.

    "More correctly that 'existence itself' exists without need for anything else."

    Which can be applied to matter.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Anonymous,

    For a recent in-depth treatment of those topics from a specifically Aristotelian-Thomistic point of view, take a look at David Oderberg's Real Essentialism. For a recent treatment from a neo-Aristotelian but non-Thomistic (and as far as I know non-theistic) point of view, see Brian Ellis, The Philosophy of Nature: A Guide to the New Essentialism.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Steersman,

    I probably should just ignore this, but I really wonder what your obsession is with my friend Bill Vallicella. For one thing, you keep quoting the same remarks from him over and over while ignoring the fact that I have now written three long blog posts in response to them. But more importantly, you seem to think -- bizarrely -- that he is somehow on your side. He is not. Bill is an old fashioned metaphysician who not only sympathizes with dualism and theism but has presented serious arguments for both. Not only that, while he is not an Aristotelian he by no means dismisses Aristotelian metaphysics. In the remarks you keep citing, he was merely criticizing one aspect of the Aristotelian-Thomistic position, namely its view of the soul. He does not reject the idea of the soul in general, and certainly does not dismiss metaphysics in general.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Although, to be totally honest, I don't get why everyone gets so upset about polemical works if they are making legitimate arguments. People are so sensitive these days. The people he ridicules in the book are making stupid arguments, and most honest people can see that, even without any philosophical training at all. They should be called out for doing so. Why is that so offensive to so many people?

    It's not offensive to them, Pattsce. If they really cared one whit about polemics per se they'd complain about Dawkins, Myers, Coyne et al. too. It's just a phony debating point, that's all -- yet another excuse not to have to engage the arguments.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Dan,

    I've been meaning to read TS Elliot for a while now, particularly some of his essays. I'm not opposed to a little poetry. I've gotten a recent interest in John Donne and some of the metaphysical poets.

    Which leads to scientism.

    No, I don't think science asks the only questions worth asking. I don't even believe it finds certainty, nor need it find that certainty. But I do believe the scientific horizon is unknown. Those questions it cannot properly ask today may be within its reach in this century. That's considered optimistic by some. But considering the speed at which our scientific knowledge is expanding I think it's impossible to say with confidence that certain questions will always be beyond its reach. For the time being we will have to muddle our way through a lot of unknowables. My objection is to those who claim they already know those unknowables and even claim they have reached the 'necessary' truths. Yet some of those latching onto such fantasies accuse science of overreaching. Go figure.

    ReplyDelete
  29. a more or less accurate parody of what passes for logic in things like Philosophy of Mind and TLS

    Decidedly less.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Those questions it cannot properly ask today may be within its reach in this century.

    Another person who has never heard of the is-ought distinction.

    ReplyDelete
  31. he is still using the philosophy of Empiricism to build the bridge

    I have yet to see a civil engineer with a copy of Hume in his back pocket.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Well, I've never seen the word "scientism" used other than pejoratively. The trouble with it is that as positivism is conducted by positivists, I presume scientism if conducted by scientists. Doesn't really work, does it?

    ReplyDelete
  33. I have yet to see a civil engineer with a copy of Hume in his back pocket.

    or a copy of the works of Aristotle.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Dr. Feser,

    First of all, thank you for your response.

    But not so much an obsession, I think, as a recognition of what I think is a decidedly weak link in your arguments - a "target of opportunity". And which no one else has, I think, actually acknowledged, much less addressed.

    And, regardless of whether you addressed his arguments or not, my point was that the very fact that a controversy exists on the issue means that it could hardly be considered as a settled point and could not thereby be accepted as a fact and entail a valid premise – much less an empirically verified one. And given that state of what is apparently a central and foundational premise it seems to me logically invalid, if not presumptuous, to be insisting on the truth of any subsequent conclusions which depend on that premise and which thereby can’t be construed as anything more than hypotheses, at best.

    Though, as mentioned several times I think, I am also at least sympathetic to dualism, if not theism of one sort or another, and in particular to Aristotle’s teleology – an important and useful concept. And likewise I’m very skeptical of materialism – though I don’t have a good understanding of the details – although I suppose that is a consequence of dualism. Seems to me that Humanity is quite a bit more than just the sum of the parts – at least of those that we have so far been able to elucidate – which materialism would seem to deny.

    And finally, I’m certainly not dismissing metaphysics in general either – or shouldn’t have. Seems the field covers a lot of ground and incorporates a lot of concepts – the question seems to be which concepts and which areas are worth building on.

    Steersman
    [Jim]

    ReplyDelete
  35. Matthew G said:

    "At least Science/Logical-Positivism can actually show some tangible results and benefits."

    And the only cost is that it contradicts itself. Not a problem as long as one refuses to listen.


    Seems to me that you’re straining at the gnat – logical positivism (LP) – yet swallowing the camel – A-T metaphysics – whole.

    That LP might have some contradictions – and I’d appreciate knowing what you think those are – should not hide the fact – one might call it the elephant in the A-T living room – that that combination of science and LP has provided Humanity with, quite literally, a cornucopia of benefits. Can you point to a similar mountain, or even one a tenth of its size, due entirely to A-T metaphysics?

    And relative to contradictions, while those are, of course, something to be concerned about and should be the target of efforts to resolve them, contradictions in themselves are not intrinsically bad or insurmountable. The questions are what is the scope and what are the consequences of those contradictions and how are they dealt with.

    For example, consider what might be viewed as, at least for the sake of this argument, a contradiction between the “world-views” afforded by quantum mechanics (QM) and general relativity (GR). At the smallest end of the physical spectrum QM describes “reality” reasonably well – to a very high degree of accuracy as a matter of fact – but GR, as a theoretical description and method of prediction, breaks down. And, conversely, at the mid to large end of that same spectrum it is GR that has more utility than QM. Presumably some contradiction, some misunderstanding or misapprehension of the nature of reality is preventing scientists from coming up with the desired “Grand Unified Theory of Everything”. But that contradiction does not preclude using some approximations to derive some useful benefits.

    And, apropos of which and since Aristotle seems in favour in this neck of the woods, consider this quote of him: “It is the mark of a civilized mind to rest satisfied with the degree of precision that the subject admits and not to seek exactitude where only an approximation of the truth is possible.” Even if said approximations entail a trivial contradiction or two ….

    ReplyDelete
  36. `and I’d appreciate knowing what you think those are`

    We have been over this. LP is self-refuting. Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Mateo said:

    In A-T metaphysics we have what amounts to the simple premises:

    1. There cannot be an infinite chain of caused causes.

    2. No effect can have in it that which was not present in some way in the cause.

    Asserting that there is something flighty, ephemeral, and illusory about these premises is a tough sell, and I don't envy you in trying to make such a sale. In fact, I question why anyone would want to make such a sale.


    Those are certainly simple premises – apparently. Though one might argue that the devil is in the details which you seem somewhat averse to addressing.

    For example, who said there cannot be an “infinite chain of caused causes”? Maybe the last effect is the first cause. Anyway, you spoke with God and She gave you the Word? You don’t have a premise there – at least as a “brute” fact – but only a hypothesis – and a very iffy one at that, if not actually a “flighty, ephemeral and illusory” one.

    And in what way is an effect in the cause? Say I have a domino (A) positioned to tip over another domino (B) – can you measure the weight of A and detect a difference between B being present or not? How about if I replace B with another domino, C, that is twice as heavy as B. Will the difference in the weight of A with C being present or not be twice the difference in the first case? Again, unless you have some facts to justify that assertion your “premise” number 2 is only another iffy hypothesis, likewise “flighty, ephemeral and illusory”.

    ReplyDelete
  38. >That LP might have some contradictions – and I’d appreciate knowing what you think those are –

    So Steersman did you never get around to those articles I assigned you by Feser on Scientism?

    If you did you wouldn't ask these questions because you would have your answer.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Steersman,

    No disrespect intended, but what strikes me as flighty and ephemeral are your objections to these simple metaphysical principles, and your apparent inability to see the forest for the trees.

    Now it may simply be that you genuinely have no personal experience of God, and if so, can hardly be faulted for adhering to atheism (forgive me if I've made a bad assumption that you are an atheist; I haven't perused the thread closely enough to know precisely where you're coming from), but for most of those who have, the meanings of "There cannot be an ensemble of beings all of which depend on other beings for their existence; there must be at least one self-existent being that gives existence to all of the others" and "There cannot be more in the effects than there is in the cause" is pretty darned crystal clear. It seems to me that only one who has decided the issue in advance against God (and for the understandable reason that he has never experienced God), could possibly find in these principles some sort of fever-dream morass of ephemeral vagueness and fatal imprecision. To me, thinking about how dominoes could somehow refute the principles is the fever dream.

    No insult intended.

    I suppose my question to you would have to be: do you actually want to experience God? If not, I would expect your intellect to do whatever is necessary to block the way. Again, no insult intended, but I've found in my own experience that that is how we are wired.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Matteo asks Steersman:

    ...do you actually want to experience God?

    Well, there's the rub! You can lead a horse to water... or as Einstein said:

    Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres.

    I suspect the gap between those who have an emotional need for religious belief and those who don't is unbridgeable. Peaceful coexistence is a reasonable goal as an alternative.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Steersman, Steersman, Steersman:

    ”For example, who said there cannot be an “infinite chain of caused causes”? Maybe the last effect is the first cause.”

    Let’s pretend Bill Vallicella said it; does that help you consider the statement rather than just reflexively disputing it?

    ”And in what way is an effect in the cause? Say I have a domino (A) positioned to tip over another domino (B)”

    For the specific example you gave, domino (A) can’t impart more momentum to domino (B) than (A) has itself. What’s “iffy” about that that? Or “flighty, ephemeral and illusory”?

    Really you’re just being argumentative in a lot of your posts. Look at your example of QM supposedly contradicting GR. Let’s leave aside that these are two different models that properly apply to different domains. I won’t even challenge you to point to a direct result of either that is directly incompatible with the other. How does your example have anything to do with logical positivism contradicting itself? LP is self-refuting, so you protest QM contradicts GR. Are you really happy with your contribution here?

    Don’t impute error in others when, in actual fact, you lack understanding of the matters you’re discussing Most importantly you have The Last Superstition. The answers to the main questions of your September 17, 2011 8:12 PM post are in TLS. You would really benefit from reading it again.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Steersman,

    "And in what way is an effect in the cause? Say I have a domino (A) positioned to tip over another domino (B) - can you measure the weight of A and detect a difference between B being present or not? How about if I replace B with another domino, C, that is twice as heavy as B. Will the difference in the weight of A with C being present or not be twice the difference in the first case?"

    IMO, you're falling into a trap if you look at this issue this way, through their eyes. The effect is not in domino B or C. The effects transfer into the surface, into the air, and even into light patterns. We know that in nature, in a closed system, energy is neither lost nor gained. And even with a simple domino example energy radiates throughout the system. It's not kept locally in the dominoes. The causes that topple domino A are multiple too. That domino has to sit on something. Gravity and friction keeps it upright. Atomic forces keep it together. The feather that topples A has the same requirements. So there is no "first cause" that topples domino A. That's an illusion and it's an illusion we must keep if we are to reach the A-T conclusion that there is a nice and tidy chain of causation that looks like a series of dominoes. When we get rid of that illusion "first cause" is nonsensical.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Jinzang,

    "Another person who has never heard of the is-ought distinction."

    This shows your ignorance or your keen ability to believe what you want to believe. Of course I've heard of the is-ought distinction. I don't deny it's out of scientific reach for the time being. It does not follow that it will always be out of reach.

    ReplyDelete
  44. @all

    just fyi,

    There is a stark difference in the way Steersman comports himself towards theological and philosophical issues pertaining to Christian doctrine while on this blog and how he talks about them once he's over at Dr. Coyne's website, where he appears to be a regular contributor.

    http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/catholics-claim-that-lies-are-truer-than-truth/#comments

    (Just use Ctrl+F and search his name)

    Who knows, maybe his behavior has improved over the last day or so and how he is here is more representative of how he actually is. Or maybe his appearance here is just a veil covering his repellent dishonesty.

    In any case, after glancing at some of the smug, dismissive, intellectually dishonest, standard Gnu-Atheist tropes he's regurgitated at Coyne's place (Tooth fairies and all), I can't take him seriously and can't be bothered to waste my time on his comments anymore.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Djindra--

    I have not followed this overall discussion closely enough to avoid asking whether or not you have done a close and open-minded reading of Feser's book(s). It is hard for me to understand how you could come up with your most recently stated objection concerning the dominoes if you have.

    ReplyDelete
  46. Papania--

    I tend to take people as seriously as they wish to be taken, according to how they present themselves in the venue at hand. Without being offered a clean slate, who of us would not be doomed?

    ReplyDelete
  47. Matteo,

    Look, all I'm saying is that I see little point in debating theology and theistic philosophy with someone who is smugly convinced that belief in God is like belief in the Tooth fairy, and that all religious people are mentally "tormented" and deluded, guilty of self-deception, and guilty of deceiving others.

    ReplyDelete
  48. @Papania:

    We really don't need to go there. The fact that Steersman is willing to keep engaging us tells me that he wants to know the truth, and that he isn't just out to express his resentments. Ultimately, what we should want is for him to know the truth, and we should present it to him as best we can.

    If we start using police state tactics, and start rummaging through his online garbage, we are no better than they are.

    Really, let's not go there.

    ReplyDelete
  49. If Steersman acts like a total obnoxious Gnu cheerleader over at Coyne blog I don't give a s**T. I'm obnoxious for Feser myself & I don't care .

    Here let him make a rational philosophical argument sans Gnupidity in the model and methods of a rational Atheist philosopher and I will have no beef with him.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Untenured, BY,

    I don't care all that much if you wish to continue reading and engaging his comments. I'm simply saying that I will do neither, as I now have sufficient evidence to clearly see that it's an exercise in futility. He doesn't merely believe that you, Feser, and I are wrong. He believes that you, Feser, and I are mentally ill and deluded. Good luck trying to have a fruitful exchange with someone like that. When's the last time you've taken seriously the words of a mentally ill and deluded person?

    ReplyDelete
  51. “an irreligious worldview is accordingly deeply irrational, immoral, and indeed insane.”

    -Edward Feser, TLS

    But Feser clarifies that he is "not talking about the actual moral or intellectual character of any particular person or persons".

    Likewise, it is possible for me (or Steersman) to think that certain Christian beliefs are idiotic, while at the same time not considering the believers idiots.

    ReplyDelete
  52. Papania said:

    Or maybe his appearance here is just a veil covering his repellent dishonesty.

    At least I had the courtesy to not be sailing under false colours, under two (or more) avatars, on one or both of those two sites – not like others I might add.

    And I’ve been pretty consistent – and honest, I think, in my positions in both locations. In both places I’ve expressed criticisms of many of the strictly gnu-atheist arguments – and been castigated as an accommodationist (and worse) – notably its aversion if not blindness to the manifest evidence for teleology and its role in evolution, along with its apparent unwillingness or inability to get off the dime of thinking of god only in terms defined by Christian fundamentalists. Although I think and have expressed the opinion that there’s more than a small amount of justification for that position which, I might add, both Mike Flynn and Dr. Feser have apparently expressed some agreement with – even if the latter, at least, seems somewhat (?) ambivalent on the point.

    And in both locations I’ve expressed some criticisms of both the strictly Christian fundamentalist position along with that of the Dr. Feser’s Aristotelian-Thomist metaphysics while expressing some support for philosophy and metaphysics, if not theism, in general. For example this post of mine on Dr. Coyne’s site:

    While that is no doubt true of some groups, [accommodationists] I don’t think that it applies to them all. As you suggest and as I have argued, it is the fundamentalists, those who are Biblical literalists, who are the most problematic, but I am not willing to tar all forms of theism with the same brush and risk, as the saying goes, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    I think there’s some truth, some valuable and important perceptions and values on both sides of the fence. But a dogmatic adherence to various “sheer speculations” – in both camps – really doesn’t help matters at all: nobody is right if everybody else is wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Of course I've heard of the is-ought distinction. I don't deny it's out of scientific reach for the time being. It does not follow that it will always be out of reach.

    The point of the is-ought distinction is that ought questions are not matters of empirical fact and thus cannot be addressed by science. At the very least one requires a non-empirical rule mapping the ought to an is.

    If you think otherwise, would enjoy hearing your explanation.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Papania said also:

    Look, all I'm saying is that I see little point in debating theology and theistic philosophy with someone who is smugly convinced that belief in God is like belief in the Tooth fairy, and that all religious people are mentally "tormented" and deluded, guilty of self-deception, and guilty of deceiving others.

    I think you need to differentiate between the different parts of the spectrum of religious belief – and religious disbelief as well. But relative to the former, I have not at all said “all religious” people and have generally been careful – if not here then in other locations – in emphasizing the problematic aspect of a primarily literalist interpretation of the Bible. Which Mike Flynn also seems to agree with, although he, like Dr. Feser, seems to want to have his cake and eat it too.

    But for a perspective on that from a religious person, a Christian priestess – Greta Vosper (referenced on a post by Jerry Coyne on the topic of “Evolutionary Christianity”), consider her statement relative to her book, With or Without God:

    “Those who recognize the Bible’s claim to be the [literal] word of God as the monster in the tub with the baby are the ones who must throw that monster out with the bathwater” [MacLean’s, March 31, 2008].

    And my impression is that there is far too much literalism still in the Catholic Church and dogmata than is good for it – or anybody else. For example, I quoted this choice bit of Aquinas from Dawkins’ The God Delusion:

    That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. [The God Delusion; pg 360]

    Now, Mike Flynn pointed out [thanks] that that quote was not entirely accurate. Which seems true enough. But on reviewing the source and, supposedly, Aquinas’ own words it is hard for me to see how the scenario described – regardless of whether those indulging themselves were “wayfarers” or “comprehensors” – can be construed as anything other than literal. And likewise hard for me to see how that is anything other than condoning and propagating the idea of god as some deranged, demented, depraved, draconian, pathological, psychopathic, psychotic, sadistic monster. [Sorry; got carried away – though I suppose I could have gone further before running out of relevant adjectives and stopping.]

    However, as I have indicated – many times even, I am quite willing to consider, if not actually concede, that there are some important perspectives, on god even, in some metaphysics – possibly even that of the A-T variety – and some of it even hangs together rather well and suggests some worthwhile avenues to pursue. And even those who are deluded may even have some “method in their madness” that bears some truth or value.

    But this “my country, my religion, my philosophy right-or-wrong” – group-think at its worst – really seems like bad karma from square one. If we are not able to look at our own backyards and see some problematic consequences there for everyone else then the prognosis does not look terribly good – I think the Bible even has something on the topic about motes. As Dylan put it, the hour is getting late – let us not talk falsely now.

    ReplyDelete
  55. djindra,

    “I think it's impossible to say with confidence that certain questions will always be beyond its [science's] reach.”

    Can I push this a stage further? You’ve identified 2 kinds of question, 1, those which science can answer, 2, those which science may one day be able to answer but cannot at the moment. Is there any question which you would put in category 3: questions science will never be able to answer, because they are beyond the scope of science?

    ReplyDelete
  56. Ben Yachov said:

    If Steersman acts like a total obnoxious Gnu cheerleader over at Coyne blog I don't give a s**T. I'm obnoxious for Feser myself & I don't care.

    I haven’t always been particularly popular there – singing out of key at times. Although I think it’s wise to aim for a balanced position.

    Here let him make a rational philosophical argument sans Gnupidity in the model and methods of a rational Atheist philosopher and I will have no beef with him.

    Been meaning to look into Quentin Smith and hope to find some time to do so in the next while.

    ReplyDelete
  57. That LP might have some contradictions – and I’d appreciate knowing what you think those are – should not hide the fact – one might call it the elephant in the A-T living room – that that combination of science and LP has provided Humanity with, quite literally, a cornucopia of benefits.

    Quite literally? Like, there's a literal cornucopia out there, filled with tangible benefits?

    Really though, considering how late in the game LP showed up, trying to connect "LP and science" with many "benefits" isn't just tenuous, it's ridiculous. LP showed up in, what, the mid-19th century?

    The combination of science and Christian belief has provided the world with a host of benefits (All manner of charities, hospitals built, funding for cures, etc). And the combination of science with government has produced many bad things along with many good things (Nuclear weapons, eugenics programs, and so on.)

    There's an elephant in the room here, but I think it's for anyone who suggests that "LP and science" have provided those benefits.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Which Mike Flynn also seems to agree with, although he, like Dr. Feser, seems to want to have his cake and eat it too.

    And your problem here is binary thinking, where the only possibilities for Genesis are 'it's either utterly literal documentary history, or it's complete myth and has no correspondence with history whatsoever'. That there is a midway point - that, particularly in the passages in question, what you're getting is a poetic description of a real event - doesn't seem to register. Which warrants more of a "Holy crap, can you gnus really not grasp something this simple?" than YOS's reply in your link does.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Alan Fox wrote, "Well, I've never seen the word 'scientism' used other than pejoratively."

    Jerry Fodor uses it non-pejoratively to describe his own view in his essay, "Is Science Biologically Possible?" from the book, _Naturalism Defeated?_.

    Here's a very long link to it:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=p40tc_T7-rMC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=jerry+fodor+scientism&source=bl&ots=T7Uu7zp3Il&sig=YSmcWp1qbHdBzZCcr4_jdnEOcEc&hl=en&ei=E292TvyeM4vTiALCrpmzAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jerry%20fodor%20scientism&f=false

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous said:

    “... quite literally, a cornucopia of benefits.”

    Quite literally? Like, there's a literal cornucopia out there, filled with tangible benefits?


    Sheesh. Never heard of the concept of a “substantial subsistent form”? By which one can argue that that form, that soul of a cornucopia, is comprised of all of the many benefits of epistemology – a branch on the same footing, so to speak, as metaphysics and which includes positivism (as empiricism) – and is a subsistent thing, sort of like, say for example, “triangularity”. And contained therein are such practical applications as:

    Artificial intelligence
    Cognitive science
    Cultural anthropology (do different cultures have different systems of knowledge?)
    History and archaeology
    Intelligence (information) gathering
    Knowledge management
    Mathematics and science
    Medicine (diagnosis of disease)
    Neurology
    Behavioral neuroscience


    Or, if you don’t like that idea and find the concept somewhat unpalatable – as, apparently, do many, although I shouldn’t mention names – how about that it is metaphorical, a “poetic description of a real event”?

    Can’t have your cake and eat it too. And if you do insist on that then it seems appropriate to consider that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

    ReplyDelete
  61. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. And if you do insist on that then it seems appropriate to consider that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

    I get it now. You're one of those types of people who just loves to crack out the flowery, poetic language, and gets a little bit worked up when someone comes along and points out that you're not making any sense. That's supposed to be *your* bit, right? ;)

    And contained therein are such practical applications as:

    Wonderful. Did you miss the little part about how the problem was your conjoining of "science and LP" makes no goddamn sense, given how ridiculously recently LP appeared on the scene? And that's before pointing out that even after it appeared on the scene, "LP and science" were not producing any special, unique 'benefits to humanity' as opposed to, say... science and Christian moral beliefs, or engineering and theism, and so on.

    Squirming around and saying what amounts to "Um, uh, epistemology was involved and epistemology is part of philosophy and logical positivism is a philosophy that involves some empiricism so...!!" doesn't really get you anywhere.

    You screwed up. "LP and science" have provided very little of what you suggested they did. You seem to know as much. Thanks, we've gotten that out of the way.

    how about that it is metaphorical, a “poetic description of a real event”?

    No, I'm willing to be a fundamentalist and suggest that any idea you know what you're talking about on the subject of "science and LP", or Genesis, is a literal claim that has been demonstrated by reason and investigation to be untrue. ;)

    Science and logical positivism gave us archaeology. Holy hell, some people...

    ReplyDelete
  62. Oh boy. Even better: On the linked list of "practical applications of epistemology", which was offered to shore up claims about what "LP and science" has given the world, is this little entry.

    Theology and apologetics

    That's right: Science and LP has given the world theology and apologetics. Way to go, Steersman! ;)

    ReplyDelete
  63. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  64. If LP had any validity as a philosophy modern Atheist philosophers would be singing it from the rooftops. They just simply don't.

    The only persons in the Atheist community who are singing it's praises are Atheists with no knowledge of philosophy and or contempt for philosophy(which includes virtually every Gnu).

    You may have to learn the hard way Steersman when you start digging into it. But I mean it when I said LP is about as valid as Global Flood Theory.

    Even as early as the 19th century the Vatican Intelligentsia believed in an Anthopomorphically universal flood and not a Planet wide one because the science wasn't there.

    Just as logical coherence and consistency is not found in LP Philosophy which is why A.G. Flew at the height of his Atheism said it is unworkable.

    But that is part of philosophy go learn the hard way.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Logical Positivism tried to provide a model of how science should be done. It had little impact on the actual practice of science, except in psychology, where it resulted in behaviorism. As the details were worked out, insurmountable problems arose, which caused logical positivist theory of science to be abandoned and be replaced by historicism, that is, studying the history of science to deduce how it is actually practiced.

    This analysis is uncontroversial to anyone conversant in philosophy.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Ben Yachov said:

    ... which is why A.G. Flew at the height of his Atheism said it is unworkable.

    One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest? Sorry ...

    ReplyDelete
  67. Anonymous said:
    September 18, 2011 3:42 PM:

    I get it now. You're one of those types of people who just loves to crack out the flowery, poetic language ...

    I seem to be in good company – more or less. Say, out of curiosity, how come you don’t put a name or an avatar to your posts? Prefer “Anonymous” as a flag of convenience? No courage in your convictions?

    Wonderful. Did you miss the little part about how the problem was your conjoining of "science and LP" makes no goddamn sense ...

    So LP has some warts. Its parent (positivism?) – or grandparent (empiricism) – can still stand in for it and my case is the same. You’re still not addressing that elephant in the living room.

    Seems to me that you and many others, including Dr. Feser, are attacking LP as some sort of straw man the same way that he is suggesting that gnu-atheists are attacking a caricature, in his view, of the cosmological argument.

    And that's before pointing out that even after it appeared on the scene, "LP and science" were not producing any special, unique 'benefits to humanity' as opposed to, say... science and Christian moral beliefs, or engineering and theism, and so on.

    Not at all the same case – apples and oranges. Science seems to depend on empiricism [subset: positivism] more than science does on “Christian moral beliefs”; science cannot (or should not) really be separated from a philosophy of science (of one school or another) – and, if I’m not mistaken, “Christian moral beliefs” really doesn’t qualify as one of those.

    ”how about that it is metaphorical, a poetic description of a real event”?

    No, I'm willing to be a fundamentalist and suggest that any idea you know what you're talking about ...


    And now for the “non-sequitur award of decade” [drum roll ...]. What the hell does your statement have to do with mine? I was drawing an analogy between the non-existent “literal cornucopia” and your equally non-existent literal Adam and Eve – your “real event”. That it is dressed up with some “poetic descriptions” does not, should not, hide the fact that neither form exists or did exist: they are both virtual forms, projections, analogies, metaphors, fictions (you do know the difference between fiction and non-fiction, don’t you?), even hyperbole – at best.

    ReplyDelete
  68. BeingItself said:

    Likewise, it is possible for me (or Steersman) to think that certain Christian beliefs are idiotic, while at the same time not considering the believers idiots.

    Quite right. Though one might do a riff on the theme of essences and suggest that such beliefs are at least the spots (not easily removed without some serious scrubbing), if not the souls, of some individuals – I mean, how else could we know of the existence of such behaviours if they were not instantiated in at least one individual?

    And it does seem important to at least identify those behaviours – in each camp – even if we don’t name names: fix the problem, I always say, not the blame. And it is curious – maybe even encouraging – that both P.Z. Myers and E.H. Munro – “two strong men ... tho’ they come from the ends of the earth” – both managed to agree, even if somewhat hyperbolically as is apparently their wont, in the case of the Elevator Guy.

    ReplyDelete
  69. LP doesn't just have warts. No philosopher alive today whom I've ever heard of accepts it as it originally appeared.

    That said, I know there are some academics in Holland, at least, who say that while the principle of verification fails its own test, and so is, literally speaking, meaningless, it can nonetheless serve as a stance on the world. However, if you're only taking it as a stance (and I'm not sure you're rationally permitted to do even that), you can't really argue for it, but can only take it up.

    ReplyDelete
  70. Say, out of curiosity, how come you don’t put a name or an avatar to your posts? Prefer “Anonymous” as a flag of convenience? No courage in your convictions?

    Right, because we all know that bravery comes from using a nom de plume right? "Why not show you're a REAL MAN with a REAL NAME" said gatorsfan1988.

    So LP has some warts. Its parent (positivism?) – or grandparent (empiricism) – can still stand in for it and my case is the same. You’re still not addressing that elephant in the living room.

    Uh, no. It can't. The fact that you apparently didn't even know when "LP" originated indicates you don't know dick about what you're discussing. The fact that you think LP can just be "swapped in" with "empiricism" further drives that point home. Newsflash: Regular at Coyne's blog doesn't know much about what he's discussing. In other news, sky is blue, grass is green.

    Especially evident once you realize that there's no great incompatibility between theism generally, or Aristo-Thomism specifically, and the scientific method.

    Seems to me that you and many others, including Dr. Feser, are attacking LP as some sort of straw man the same way that he

    No, you're the one who brought up LP and made an ass out of yourself. Stop trying to blame your shortcomings on others.

    You were greatly misinformed about the history of philosophy and, apparently, what "logical positivism" even is. And you made that very clear. Owe up to it and move on. 'Feser' and the rest didn't strike you down without warrant here. You pretty much eviscerated yourself without anyone lifting a finger.

    Not at all the same case – apples and oranges. Science seems to depend on empiricism [subset: positivism] more than science does on “Christian moral beliefs”;

    Bull. You talked about "what science has given us", and the lion's share of what people care about in that regard is technology, and fields which contribute to it. Your own list had "theology and apologetics" on it, something you didn't even seem aware of. Such is the danger of being a google scholar.

    Keep your "logical positivism", which science did fine without for quite a long time, and continues to do fine without. As for empirical approaches, theists can help themselves to such without batting an eye.

    What the hell does your statement have to do with mine?

    Read it over a few more times, bud. I'd try to explain it to you, but I can't... type... slow... enough... for... you... to... understand. ;)

    There was a literal "Adam and Eve", nor does the science speak against such when just what that doctrine means is explained. I know it's hard for you to grasp, the whole "Poetic description with a historical core" thing. But if Feser and company wanted to explain this topic to people with your particular shortcomings, someone would have to find a way to turn blog posts into pop-up books. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  71. They've all just been strawmanning LP, Bobcat? Can't you see? LP + science gave us the Commodore 64 and windmills!!! :D

    ReplyDelete
  72. Daniel Smith said… What is "idiotic" though, is jumping from those premises to that conclusion (undetectable gremlins). 
Ed doesn't do idiotic things like that. In fact, I challenge you to find an argument as idiotic as that one submitted by Dr. Feser anywhere.

    Aw, you're missing the point, man! The parody isn't about reasoning or philosophy. The parallel really goes like this:

    Feser made an argument for God/the soul/whatever.
    I don't like the conclusion.
    Therefore the argument is wrong.

    Someone makes an argument for invisible gremlins.
    I don't like that conclusion either.
    Therefore the argument is wrong.

    See? They're exactly the same!

    ReplyDelete
  73. Steersman said… Can you point to a similar mountain, or even one a tenth of its size, due entirely to A-T metaphysics?

    Sure, the combination of A-T and science (if you can call it a "combination", since science is more a subset or corollary of A-T) has provided a veritable "cornucopia" of benefits. (Not literally, of course.) And it not only provides a non-contradictory grounding for science, but for morality, for intellection, for snappy comebacks...

    ReplyDelete
  74. djindra said… IMO, you're falling into a trap if you look at this issue this way, through their eyes.

    It's true, whatever you do, don't look through their telescope!!! If you start trying to understand them you open yourself up to the possibility that they might even (gasp) be right!

    ReplyDelete
  75. Anonymous,

    Of course you think limiting yourself to your tunnelvision is a good thing.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Untenured said:

    @Papania: We really don't need to go there. The fact that Steersman is willing to keep engaging us tells me that he wants to know the truth, and that he isn't just out to express his resentments.

    That’s classy – thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  77. Fliss,

    Looking through a telescope is tunnel vision. I love it. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  78. Dan,

    Is there any question which you would put in category 3: questions science will never be able to answer, because they are beyond the scope of science?

    Only questions which are physically impossible to answer, like, What does another Universe look like? Or prove things that are logically impossible to prove, like, There are no ghosts.

    ReplyDelete
  79. Fliss said:

    Can't you see? LP + science gave us the Commodore 64 and windmills!!! :D

    Do give that straw man another kick. Or ten. Go big – fill your boots.

    When you’re done maybe you can explicitly elucidate the precise contributions made by A-T metaphysics to those technologies. No rush – take your time.

    ReplyDelete
  80. What exactly are the contributions of "LP," again? Doesn't logical positivism ultimately destroy science anyway?

    ReplyDelete
  81. Oops, a typo above. Oh well!

    Do give that straw man another kick. Or ten. Go big – fill your boots.

    Does it make you feel better to accuse people of strawmanning your arguments when it's pointed out how flawed they are, and how uninformed you are?

    Have a good cry, Steersman. Your rep is already sunk, so you have nothing to lose. ;)

    When you’re done maybe you can explicitly elucidate the precise contributions made by A-T metaphysics to those technologies. No rush – take your time.

    Because I said that A-T metaphysics led to the Commodore 64 and windmills, right? Just slinging everything and seeing what sticks now, huh?

    That science + LP is doing wonders for you! I can't understand why no one but the philosophically uninformed ditched it, including some of its main proponents. No siree. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  82. Er, everyone but the philosophically informed, that is. Yawn, time for bed.

    ReplyDelete
  83. Jinzang,

    The point of the is-ought distinction is that ought questions are not matters of empirical fact and thus cannot be addressed by science.

    What if the rule for "Thou shall not steal" is traced to a particular biological response in our brains. This response, therefore, is not taught, is not a cultural construct. Furthermore we find it is very difficult to override and in doing so it causes other destructive issues. That fixes the ought in the empirical.

    ReplyDelete
  84. Fliss said:

    “When you’re done maybe you can explicitly elucidate the precise contributions made by A-T metaphysics to those technologies. No rush – take your time.”

    Because I said that A-T metaphysics led to the Commodore 64 and windmills, right? Just slinging everything and seeing what sticks now, huh?


    That is still not an answer as to what was added to the mix by A-T metaphysics – all on its lonesome, not riding in on the coattails of any prior philosophies or concepts, just what it created on its own efforts, through the fusion of Aristotle’s philosophy and that of Aquinas (more accurately, in the view of one, the implantation of “Christian elements into the foreign soil of Aristotelianism”).

    That science + LP is doing wonders for you! I can't understand why no one but the philosophically uninformed ditched it, including some of its main proponents. No siree. ;)

    God, you’re obtuse. Or simply evasive. I conceded that LP had some problems, maybe even fatal ones, but pointed out that there was still a philosophy of science – largely empiricism of one sort or another – that undergirded science itself. All I’m asking is for you to show me what A-T metaphysics has specifically added to that.

    ReplyDelete
  85. djindra said:

    IMO, you're falling into a trap if you look at this issue this way, through their eyes.

    Sorry, don’t follow you – not sure if you’re just following my lead in my (attempted) parody, my reductio ad absurdum, or not. Just trying to point out, or suggest, the concept Mateo presented does not seem to make a lot of sense: that, in my example, the effect of domino B or C tipping over was supposedly somehow actually present in domino A – just in the bare fact of A standing still in a certain position relative to B or C.

    So there is no "first cause" that topples domino A. That's an illusion and it's an illusion we must keep if we are to reach the A-T conclusion that there is a nice and tidy chain of causation that looks like a series of dominoes. When we get rid of that illusion "first cause" is nonsensical.

    Can’t say that I exactly follow that either. Though that idea about illusion and A-T’s dependence on it has a ring of truth – and reminds me of a passage in TLS:

    Suffice it for now to say that Aristotle’s notion of efficient causation is by no means easily identifiable with anything you’ll find in the writings of the typical modern philosopher. Another indication of this is that Aristotle would be mystified by the tendency to treat cause and effect as essentially a relation between temporally ordered events. [pg 65]

    Yet Feser continues on with his example of a brick thrown through a window which he apparently characterizes as “a series of simultaneous causes and effects”. While he promises to provide an answer to the manifest problem – if there aren’t any differences in the individual cause-effect elements then adding up a million of them still gives zero time between first cause and final effect (one serious illusion) – in “the next chapter”, the whole premise seems incoherent at best – something definitely does not compute.

    In addition, I am most surprised that he could be using examples that are, more or less, consistent with Newtonian physics and of a human scale, particularly in light of his acknowledgement – in one of his articles on Scientism – that the “physics of the ancients [Aristotle?] and medievals was sorely lacking”. Raises some questions whether the examples have any bearing on, or provide any justification for, his and Aquinas’ conclusions about the existence and nature of God.

    ReplyDelete
  86. djindra said:

    "Furthermore we find it is very difficult to override and in doing so it causes other destructive issues."

    Why should the idea that something is difficult to override and causes other destructive issues mean that something is WRONG?

    ReplyDelete
  87. StoneTop,

    "Rather manifestly not true... If I am falling from an airplane I don't need to work through the philosophy of what is happening before the parachute works."

    You also don't need to know the science of wind resistance and all of the other things that make up a parachute, either. So what's your point?

    ReplyDelete
  88. Steersman,

    >One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest? Sorry ...

    This was back in the 1950's thus how can the asinine slander of the likes of modern Gnu's who accused Flew of going nutty for later in life embracing Aristotelian Theism apply? Even the founder of LP denounced it.

    That like hypothetically if the writer of THE BIBLICAL FLOOD AND THE ICE EPOCH denounced his work as unscientific yet still having a stubborn Young Earth Creationist cite it.

    LP is bunk.

    ReplyDelete
  89. What if the rule for "Thou shall not steal" is traced to a particular biological response in our brains. This response, therefore, is not taught, is not a cultural construct. Furthermore we find it is very difficult to override and in doing so it causes other destructive issues. That fixes the ought in the empirical.

    Let's look at another bit of hard wired behavior, the instinct for self preservation. It, too, is very difficult to override and when overridden can lead to destruction. Yet, we call persons who override it in order to save the lives of others morally praiseworthy and heroes. President Obama gave a medal to one man for doing just this last week.

    So your proposed reduction of ethics to biology fails right at the starting gate.

    ReplyDelete
  90. Furthermore, it's the phrase "and causes other destructive issues" that does all the work in your proposed reduction of ethics to science. All you have done is smuggle an ethical conclusion, that which causes destruction is immoral, into your argument. Just because we can empirically verify that some sorts of destruction happen does not make the ethical precept that destruction is immoral an empirically verifiable fact.

    ReplyDelete
  91. djindra,

    "Absolutely. Read Bacon, for example. It was an exasperation with the Schoolmen and what obviously didn't work, and still doesn't work, that led to science in the first place. "

    That "It has to work" was a major consideration does not mean that working is used to the extent that it is used today, where it has become the only criteria worth considering. And I highly doubt that that was the case, even in Bacon, and suspect that it was not as widespread since pragmatism, for example, was both seen as novel and argued against despite essentially saying just that. Russell even considered that unscientific.

    "You seem to complain merely that I use empiricism and science in the same breath without bothering to tediously define the distinctions."

    No, I complain that you insist on the importance of empiricism to science while in same breath deriding philosophy, when empiricism is itself a philosophical position and not a scientific one. In short, you rely on things that are not science while in the same breath insisting that science is all that's worth considering.

    "In your earlier post you seemed to think I was arguing "that empiricism justifies science." I wouldn't argue that. If anything, I'd argue science justifies empiricism. "

    Which can only be done in a sense that the success of science validates the philosophy of empiricism, but would ignore why in the world science would adopt an empirical approach in the first place, to which the answer is that empiricism justifies the scientific approach, while the success of that would -- some argue -- prove that choosing that philosophy was the right move.

    "There is no doubt that science -- derogatorily referred to as scientism -- is seen around here as something separate from philosophy. So when I merely stick with the common usage you and others whine."

    First, few people actually conflate science and scientism. Scientism is the philosophy that states that the only useful method for getting knowledge is science; science is a method for getting knowledge.

    Second, the fact that my whole point was that science and philosophy are separate but that science is underpinned by philosophy seems to have escaped you. I never argued that they were the same thing, and now I'm curious what you really think about the issue.

    Third, you are still dodging the issue that you deride philosophy while allowing it to underpin your science.

    "So we have one guy claiming empiricism underpins science, and another who claims "Empiricist philosophy" has nothing to do with science and engineering. (And if I remember correctly the second guy has taken a different position with me.) No wonder so many scientists and engineers ignore this "philosophic" bantering."

    Technically, I personally said both ... and not getting the distinction is proof of your inability to grasp philosophy.

    Science, I argue, adopted empiricism as its method (at least broadly) and proceeds on that notion. It, then, is clearly empirical and is underpinned by empiricism.

    However, one does not need to be an empiricist to hold that at times one has to use empirical data to prove their statements or facts about the world. Even that paradigm case of rationalism -- Descartes -- wanted to validate and ground sense perceptions so that he could use them to get data and, well, do science. Thus, one need not be empiricist to, at times, be empirical. Technology and engineering require the empirical, but don't require empiricism. Thus, the distinction and the solution to the purported contradiction.

    I also find it amusing that you think that two people with -- I presume -- wildly different intellectual backgrounds disagreeing is somehow problematic. How conformist do you think we or philosophy are?

    ReplyDelete
  92. Just out of curiosity, who told the empiricists here that non-empiricists (in the sense of those who allow for the acquisition of knowledge by means other than empirical observation) such as Thomists do not (or cannot) still allow that empirical observation be a means to knowledge?

    I just read a rather unproductive exchange about empiricism and science where the empiricist seems quite literally to have conflated empiricism in the sense of permitting ONLY empirical observations as knowledge, with empiricism in the sense of admitting that SPECIFIC items of knowledge are dependent on observation.

    Name a bridge built without empiricism? All of them. At least if "empiricism" is taken in the former sense. Taken in the latter sense (which Thomists, as well as about anyone else would accept) it is quite true that we are dependent on our empirical knowledge when building bridges. But to say that science somehow necessitates the first form of empiricism on grounds of the truth of the second is a prime example of poor analysis.

    We have been given a false dichotomy: either accept empiricism in the first sense or reject our empirical knowledge. But there's no need. I happily accept the fact that we have knowledge which has resulted from empirical observation, and I do so while leaving empiricism in the trash bin.

    ReplyDelete
  93. There is no doubt that science -- derogatorily referred to as scientism...

    Yet another example of poor analysis. Science does not equal scientism any more than empirical knowledge equals empiricism. The refusal to see basic distinctions like this is what renders these debates sterile.

    ReplyDelete
  94. September 19, 2011 6:53 AM
    Jinzang said...

    "Furthermore, it's the phrase "and causes other destructive issues" that does all the work in your proposed reduction of ethics to science. All you have done is smuggle an ethical conclusion, that which causes destruction is immoral, into your argument. Just because we can empirically verify that some sorts of destruction happen does not make the ethical precept that destruction is immoral an empirically verifiable fact."

    This transparent smuggling activity is what probably what provides the most amusement for those of us who watch the disciples of Hume and Bentham and geez how many others of their general kind, struggling to make compelling ethical arguments.

    They are like little kids sneaking across the floor with a blanket thrown over their shoulders and believing it makes what they are doing invisible.

    They ought to just give it up, and like Rorty admit that they want what they want simply because they want it.

    Then those they are dealing with - against whom they are seeking to lay solidarity claims for the most part - can make a calculation as to whether the miserable pleaders or their wants are worth accommodating and if so on what practical cost benefit basis; without the bother of suffering through the pseudo-ethical song and dance routine.

    It's all as grating as listening to atheists sing brotherhood hymns at political rallies.


    I think that Sam Harris' spectacular failure to try and found his version of objective ethics on something "objective" and not arbitrary, while admitting that an arbitrary affirmation underlies it, is an outstanding recent example of this.

    Maybe I ought to link to it ...

    ReplyDelete
  95. Steersman,

    "Yet Feser continues on with his example of a brick thrown through a window which he apparently characterizes as “a series of simultaneous causes and effects”."

    I'm just reading the book -- and that chapter -- now, and it seems to me that the issues with the modern conception are as follows:

    1) That it claims that events cause, as opposed to saying that things cause (he's explicit about this one).

    2) That for causation temporality is a defining property, and if the cause, say, is not temporally prior to the effect it isn't causation. This is controversial, and it isn't clear yet that this is a problem, although if you think about final causes and his claim that the universe might have always existed and yet there still be a final cause you can see that this might be a concern.

    The issue I have with the analysis is that it seems that the modern conception, at least, is informed by the idea that events can indeed be causes in an interesting sense, and so you don't need a reduction to things to talk about causation in an interesting way. He may be right that events aren't the only causes and that things can indeed be said to cause, but to me it's difficult to accept that if one cannot say that, for example, a historical event caused a dramatic change in a society. But there may be issues of what is meant by a thing in here.

    ReplyDelete
  96. @DNW:

    "They are like little kids sneaking across the floor with a blanket thrown over their shoulders and believing it makes what they are doing invisible.

    Awesome comment! This inspires me; four stages in the life cycle of a naturalist empiricist.

    At stage one, you conclude that we can only know propositions which are empirically established by the natural sciences. This gets you to the personally agreeable conclusion that there is no metaphysical truth and no reason to believe in God. At stage one, you retain your beliefs in moral, aesthetic and normative political truths. Most self-identified naturalists are stuck at this stage.

    At stage two, you start to apply your scruples more consistently, and you realize that that there are no moral or aesthetic or normative political truths either. So you attempt to reconstruct them in terms of something that transparently lacks any normative force, like shared intuitions or moral sentiments or Rawlsian procedures, say. You tell yourself and others that this is "just as good" as the real thing.

    At stage three, you realize that these desperate attempts to ward off nihilism aren't going to work, and you reach the conclusion that we live in an austere universe devoid of any morals or meaning. Nevertheless, you think that this view of the world is rationally obligatory in light of modern science.

    At stage four, you realize that you had been clinging, almost without realizing it, to this normative concept called "rationality." Even worse, your tacit commitment to this illegitimate normative concept motivated you to move from 1 to 2 to 3. But where the dickens does this queer notion belong in our austere view of the world? And, come to think of it, what on earth is a "mind"?

    Now you have a choice. Either you embrace all out nihilism or some absurdist form of postmodernism, or you go back to step one. You admit that you are powerless to forestall the logical implications of your philosophy, and that your life has become unmanageable.

    ReplyDelete
  97. "This transparent smuggling activity is what probably what ..."

    I'm not really Cockney ... just ineffective in trying to handle work calls while evading work.


    @ untenured

    Liked the 4 stages.

    Immediately arising question are:

    1, How many of those who have arrived at your stage four have ultimately decided to embrace a form of nihilism which takes the view that "It's better to huckster than to pester"? (To quote a sympathetic expositor of deconstruction)

    2, What after having done so, is their status as "moral beings"?

    ReplyDelete
  98. DNW said:
    September 19, 2011 9:44 AM

    They are like little kids sneaking across the floor with a blanket thrown over their shoulders and believing it makes what they are doing invisible. They ought to just give it up, and like Rorty admit that they want what they want simply because they want it.

    And, do pray tell, how is that in any way, shape or form different from what Dr. Feser does repeatedly throughout The Last Superstition, as a philosophy, as a theme, and as a modus operandi?

    For instance:

    Here, as elsewhere, the arguments we are considering are attempts at what I have been calling metaphysical demonstration, not probabilistic empirical theorizing. In each case, the premises are obviously true, the conclusion follows necessarily, and thus the conclusion is obviously true as well. That, at any rate, is what the arguments claim. If you’re going to refute them, then you need to show either that the premises are false or that the conclusion doesn’t really follow. Otherwise you have no rational basis for not accepting them. [pg 125; my emphasis]

    Apart from the trivial detail that it is the responsibility of those presenting an argument to show that the premises, as hypotheses, are true – or maybe Dr. Feser thinks that our justice system should be reformulated on the principle of guilty until proven innocent – and not that of those to whom it is presented, one of the central principles on which Thomist metaphysics crucially depends – that a form can be subsistent – is not at all, in any way shape or form, “obviously” true given the controversy over the concept and the lack of consensus on it within the philosophical community – much less any empirical verification of the conjecture.

    Yet, in spite of that minor deficiency, he blithely, if not disingenuously (at best), continues to assert:

    Yet we have already shown that there is a God, and that the rational soul, unlike any other kind of soul, is ordered toward the knowledge of God. [pg 131; my emphasis]

    Now, that concept of a subsistent form may actually hold some water depending on the truth of other conjectures, but it is anything other than a slam-dunk – the game has hardly even been conceived of, much less started. And to assert from the outset that – equivalently – form and content are one and the same is to include a contradiction within one’s system of logic which the most basic understanding of logic manifests the conclusion that one can “prove” anything one wants, that black is white – which is essentially what one is claiming from the outset. Doesn’t add much to one’s claim to reason.

    But, analogously, to assert that form and content are one and the same is to look at some railway tracks disappearing off into the horizon and to assert that, though the adjacent tracks are, in fact, obviously separate and are so for some distance, they must – obviously, ipso facto – meet at some point over the horizon (aka God). But that is obviously a perceptual illusion.

    Now, one might suggest and argue that the tracks are actually great circles on a sphere and that elliptical, non-Euclidean, geometry prevails in that neck of the woods and from that conclude that form and content actually do meet at one point and are the same. But that is a hypothesis and not a fact, regardless of how much one might wish – want, if not desperately need – that to be the case.

    ReplyDelete
  99. @DNW:

    I look at it as a trade-off between sanity and integrity. The stage 1 naturalist has, but for his rejection of metaphysics and religion, a fundamentally sane but deeply inconsistent view of the world. As he progresses to 2 and 3 he adopts a less and less sane but more internally coherent view of the world. By the time he gets to four, he has no choice left but to either embrace a fully coherent form of insanity, or retain his sanity in some measure and simply accepting some level of cognitive dissonance. The key, however, is that you cannot find a naturalist empiricist whose worldview is both completely sane and completely coherent.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Steersman,

    Yet Feser continues on with his example of a brick thrown through a window which he apparently characterizes as “a series of simultaneous causes and effects”. While he promises to provide an answer to the manifest problem – if there aren’t any differences in the individual cause-effect elements then adding up a million of them still gives zero time between first cause and final effect

    When I read TLS, I didn't get the same impression as you, as to what Feser was saying. True, 100 million simultaneous events will happen simultaneously. That is, the millionth will be simultaneous with the first. But Feser didn't say every event was simultaneous. For example, in the brick analogy, he argues that the brick is passing through the window simultaneously with the window's giving way, but this seems pretty well obvious. Unless, that is, you want to argue that the brick passed through the window before it gave way, or that the window gave way prior to contact with the brick. Feel free to argue your case if you so choose.

    But, the example is about a particular instance of cause and effect. Feser never says that the brick hit the window simultaneously with its leaving the hand. To say that there are causal relations such that cause an effect are simultaneous and between objects (and therefore, that the modern tendency to speak of causes and effects as events preceding and following one another is flawed) is not to say that everything happens simultaneously, nor is it to say that causation as such is always a simultaneous affair. The hand causes the brick to move. The brick causes the window to move. And though these events stand in a temporal order, the objects have unique causal relations to one another. In this way, a serious of cause-effect events could be temporally spaced even though each cause is simultaneous with its effect. For instance, the hand's beginning to move is simultaneous with the brick's beginning to move. But the same relation is true between the brick and the air it replaces as it moves. It's causal relation to each of these things (hand, glass, dust, air) is simultaneous, but not each of these causal relations is happening simultaneously, and each relation lasts for it's own duration of time.

    ReplyDelete
  101. @Steersman:


    Although perhaps uncharitable, the characterization of your position as that of a parrot repeating “the concept of a subsistent form is problematic, the concept of a subsistent form is problematic, squawk, squawk” tempts me nevertheless. For you seem to be shoehorning that particular criticism everywhere it may possibly fit. For instance, you take a short passage from Feser’s book about the nature of metaphysical arguments —

    “In each case, the premises are obviously true, the conclusion follows necessarily, and thus the conclusion is obviously true as well. That, at any rate, is what the arguments claim.”

    and respond with this —

    “one of the central principles on which Thomist metaphysics crucially depends – that a form can be subsistent – is not at all, in any way shape or form, ‘obviously’ true”

    But no one (least of all Feser himself!) ever said that the human soul as a subsistent form is an immediately obvious truth, to be used as a first principle in constructing further arguments. The passage you quote expresses only that — if Feser’s arguments are both valid and sound — then no amount of empirical investigation could even in principle prove them false. You can disagree with that! Do so all you wish, but it won’t make “subsistent form! subsistent form!” any more relevant.

    You write:

    “Yet, in spite of that minor deficiency, he blithely, if not disingenuously (at best), continues to assert”

    Well, yes, it is his book; he believes in what he has shown; what would you like him to say? “Eh, I dunno about all this stuff — I gave some arguments about the existence of god and the nature of the human soul — but take it or leave it, meh.”

    ReplyDelete
  102. "And, do pray tell, how is that in any way, shape or form different from what Dr. Feser does repeatedly throughout The Last Superstition, as a philosophy, as a theme, and as a modus operandi?"


    Why ask me? I haven't read Feser's The Last Superstition, nor am I defending it, nor do I claim to speak for him.

    I'm still working through Porphyry and Boethius.

    What I am doing here, is noting the preposterous claims of certain aggressive naturalists, or physicalists if you prefer, to have arrived at an objective "truth" (or nontruth for that matter) which allows them then to disallow as intellectually bankrupt the entire critical project generally termed philosophy.

    "Thou shall have no strange gods before me" signed, The Signers of the Humanist Manifesto

    What is comical in all this is how their own anti-philosophical philosophical pretensions leave them stranded and self-contradicted.


    Take Harris' sputtering that the one thing you have to do in order to arrive at a Godless system of objectively verifiable good is to acknowledge that endless suffering is bad, and then disapprove of it.

    And if you don't care about the suffering of annoying people? Well ... then you should!

    So, I guess that's actually two "all you have to do" things you need to do which aren't objectively entailed by some descriptive statement, in order to arrive at a completely objectively derived moral imperative, eh?

    Effen eh, man ... are we supposed to take these kinds of preening clowns seriously as critical thinkers?

    I mean, if a man cannot - as so many of Feser's less profound critics apparently cannot - grasp the fact that the camera obscura model, and its derivitives, of the sense datum theory of knowledge leads logically to a form of subjectivism equivalent to idealism, then what's the use of talking to him as if he is a serious person? Just because he gets a kick out of annoying Christians by mocking "Jebus"?

    The disciples of Coyne commenting here worship in the conceptual ruins of a Logical positivism they apparently never actually studied: brainlessly repeating a language quite as dead as Latin, and never noticing that the high priest of their faith acknowledged that when tested, little in detail of the holy dogma survived a critical viewing.

    But you know, our hearts were in the right place so it was right even if it was wrong. (Though that little conceit cannot even be demonstrated)

    Hell, Eric, I think it is, cannot even get anyone from your side to define exactly what they mean by empirical.

    (Probably because they know that they are going to wind up slogging through the fields of the hermeneutics of test equipment.)

    So ultimately what we see from Feser's critics is , by and large I take pains to qualify, a resort to a shrugging pragmatism which cannot even justify its own method, much less the ends it seeks to realize.

    And like Untenured has said, the entire project of submitting ends to critical reason is eventually abandoned in favor of an instrumentalist reason nihilistically employed in the satisfaction of mindless appetites and urges: which somehow wind up being elevated like a mock host at a Satanic mass.

    Jeez. It's almost enough to make you take metaphysical speculation seriously ...

    ReplyDelete
  103. Verbose Stoic said:

    September 19, 2011 9:59 AM

    I'm just reading the book -- and that chapter -- now, and it seems to me that the issues with the modern conception are as follows: 1) That it claims that events cause, as opposed to saying that things cause (he's explicit about this one).

    Seems to me that the definition of the concept “event” is part of the problem and seems a little nebulous:

    Strictly speaking, the notion of an event is an idealization, in the sense that it specifies a definite time and place, whereas any actual event is bound to have a finite extent, both in time and in space.

    So, by that token, it would seem incoherent to talk of a thing – for example, a domino just sitting statically on a table – as an event. There’s a perception of the thing as an event, but unless there’s some variation over the duration of the event then there is really no event taking place – as in the case of the domino. Again, this I think highlights the problem with many of Aristotle’s concepts and the problems they caused for the development of physics.

    2) That for causation temporality is a defining property, and if the cause, say, is not temporally prior to the effect it isn't causation. This is controversial ….

    I agree and I think that also highlights some of difficulties with teleology – particularly when it is “defined to imply a cause subsequent in time to a given effect”. Yet it seems manifestly evident that our perception of the future, the choices attendant on that perception and the goals selected by those acts all entail or are undergirded by just that process. Either that or it is, as is the title of a book on Einstein by Hawking, one “stubbornly persistent illusion”. You might be interested in this article on purpose and teleology by one of the progenitors of the science – and mathematics – of cybernetics.

    The issue I have with the analysis is that it seems that the modern conception, at least, is informed by the idea that events can indeed be causes in an interesting sense …. He may be right that events aren't the only causes and that things can indeed be said to cause, but to me it's difficult to accept …

    Yes, I agree on both accounts. And relative to the latter, I note in a book – The Passion of the Western Mind: Understanding the Ideas That Have Shaped Our World View by Richard Tarnas (highly recommended) – that Galileo was of the same opinion and that it was his rejection of Aristotle’s physics in favour of that of Archimedes that basically started the ball rolling towards modern science and all of its benefits:

    Aristotle’s physics, based on perceptible qualities and verbal logic, still ruled most contemporary scientific thinking and dominated the universities. But Galileo’s revered model was Archimedes the mathematical physicist ... rather than Aristotle the descriptive biologist. In addition, while Aristotle’s empiricism had been predominantly a descriptive and, especially as exaggerated by later Aristotelians, logico-verbal approach, Galileo now established the quantitative experiment as the final test of hypotheses.

    Contrary to Aristotle, who held that all bodies sought their natural place and that nothing continued to move otherwise without a constantly applied push, Galileo stated that just as a body at rest would tend to remain so unless otherwise pushed, so too would a moving body tend to remain in constant motion unless otherwise stopped or deflected. Force was required to explain only change in motion, not constant motion.
    [pgs 263,264]

    And, of course, it is the misapprehension of the latter which appears to be the foundation – highly questionable thereby – for the cosmological argument.

    ReplyDelete
  104. James said:

    September 19, 2011 2:47 PM

    Although perhaps uncharitable, the characterization of your position as that of a parrot repeating “the concept of a subsistent form is problematic” …

    :-) No problemo; sticks and stones ….

    But – birds of a feather – seems to be quite a number of those in these parts: if other people wish to repeat highly questionable arguments then – speaking of birds – sauce for the goose seems like a reasonable rule of thumb. If people wish to repetitively voice the versicles then I’m ready with the rejoinder.

    But no one (least of all Feser himself!) ever said that the human soul as a subsistent form is an immediately obvious truth, to be used as a first principle in constructing further arguments.

    Well, there I would beg to differ. Seems to me that the soul is only one example of the subsistent form and Dr. Feser expends some effort in developing that early on and addressing the contrary arguments of nominalism and conceptualism:

    The senses observe this or that individual man, this or that individual dog; the intellect abstracts away the differentiating features of each and considers the animality in isolation, as a universal. This is not nominalism, for it holds that universals exist. Nor is it conceptualism, for while it holds that universals considered in abstraction from other features exist only in the mind, it also holds that they exist in the extra-mental things themselves (albeit always tied to other features) and that the abstracted universals existing in the intellect derive from our experiences of these objectively existing things, rather than from the free creations of the mind. [pg 61; my emphasis]

    The passage you quote expresses only that — if Feser’s arguments are both valid and sound — then no amount of empirical investigation could even in principle prove them false. You can disagree with that! Do so all you wish, but it won’t make “subsistent form! subsistent form!” any more relevant.

    Yes, well, my understanding is that an argument isn’t really a sound one unless the premises are actually true. Which is, if I’m not mistaken, the point in play, i.e. whether a form can also be subsistent.

    Well, yes, it is his book; he believes in what he has shown; what would you like him to say?

    Fine. I have no problem with that. If he wishes to say “I believe God exists and I really, really, really want God to exist. But, of course, I don’t have any proof that He does.” then I would say, “Fine. Go big, fill your boots”. But when he dresses up that desire in some seriously spurious and specious arguments and claims that logic and reason has “proven” that God exists and says “Oh, by the way, you have to – on pain of eternal torment – buy this whole smear of highly questionable morality on top of it” then I think I have the right to suggest that maybe there’s a loose thread there in the logic somewhere and I wonder what happens when I pull on it ….

    ReplyDelete
  105. Steersman:

    I think the real situation sort of turns things around. I know it's a tiresome "trick" but if we replace a few terms in your last paragraph I honestly think this is closer to the truth:

    "If he wishes to say “I believe God doesn't exist and I really, really, really want God not to exist. But, of course, I don’t have any proof that the arguments for Him are faulty.” then I would say, “Fine. Go big, fill your boots”. But when he dresses up that desire in some seriously spurious and specious counter-arguments and claims that logic and reason has “proven” that the arguments for God's existence are spurious...then I think I have the right to suggest that maybe there’s a loose thread there in the logic somewhere…"

    I have to ask again: do you want to know and experience God?

    ReplyDelete
  106. I have to ask again: do you want to know and experience God?

    An interesting question... if your deity exists then yes, but the same would go for any deity if it existed.

    One could just as easily ask if Allah existed would you want to know/experience Allah?

    ReplyDelete
  107. Matteo said:

    I think the real situation sort of turns things around. I know it's a tiresome "trick" but if we replace a few terms in your last paragraph I honestly think this is closer to the truth

    No problemo. But really not a symmetrical situation, I think, Matteo. For one thing I’m not threatening someone’s immortal soul with eternal torment on failure to buy the snake oil. But I’m definitely not arguing for the non-existence of a God, any God. I think the anthropomorphic Judaic-Christian one is highly improbable given that the large number of others of the same brand that Humanity has believed in over the last ten to fifty thousand years have been categorically rejected, notably by Catholicism (What are the odds that yours is any different?). And likewise, still a remote possibility that, for example, Jehovah created the universe last Thursday so I won’t waste much effort in picking from or thinking about such a field of long-shots.

    I haven’t had a chance to respond to your other post but I think you were wondering whether in fact I was an atheist. Well I’m not really and I’ve indicated that several times throughout this thread and several others. I think there’s some plausibility to conjectures about a panentheist / panpsychic conception but I’ve also indicated some support for the idea of ignosticism: “the view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of god can be meaningfully discussed”.

    I have to ask again: do you want to know and experience God?

    Sure. But the point about ignosticism applies. “What do you mean by God?” That of William Blake who saw “heaven in a wild flower and eternity in a grain of sand”? Experience that every day – more or less. Those accessible through various psychedelic concoctions? You might want to read Aldous Huxley’s The Doors of Perception on the topic, but he has this:

    In Poisons Sacres, Ivresses Divines Philippe de Felice has written at length and with a wealth of documentation on the immemorial connection between religion and the taking of drugs. Here, in summary or in direct quotation are his conclusions. The employment for religious purposes of toxic substances is ‘extraordinarily widespread... The practices studied in this volume can be observed in every region of the earth, among primitives no less than among those who have reached a high pitch of civilization. We are therefore dealing not with exceptional facts, which might justifiably be overlooked, but with a general and, in the widest sense of the word, a human phenomenon, the kind of phenomenon which cannot be disregarded by anyone who is trying to discover what religion is, and what are the deep needs which it must satisfy.’ [pgs 54,55]

    So, many different concepts; a very detailed, convoluted and intricate phenomenon. Seems an important starting point would be trying to understand the nature and sources of the experience. Then I might know how to answer your question ....

    ReplyDelete
  108. Steersman,

    The Ground of Being and the Unlimited does not really fall under the category "Any Deity", as if Thor, Wotan, and Hermes were live options for that role. The question is do you want to know your Creator, the Alpha and the Omega, God Almighty?

    If you prefer to think of Him as "Any Deity" then perhaps the answer, deep down, is "no".

    As for Allah vs Jesus and the Trinity, well, that's really a question for someone to consider who really believes there is a God, no?

    In the meantime, it seems a bit premature for an atheist/agnostic to complain that there are too many God's to choose from, I would think.

    Anyway, Steersman, you seem to be a careful thinker, but at some point you'll need to consider the role that will plays in guiding the intellect, because if the Christian faith is true, it plays a big one, indeed. Your intellect is simply not going to lead you where your will does not want to go. God forces no one into Heaven who is unwilling.

    I realize this probably all strikes you as arrogant, but honestly, if what I've said is the case, it's the case. And I believe quite strongly, based on my own experience, that it is the case. What would be arrogant for me would be to pretend otherwise.

    God's waiting if you want to find Him, but if you're really looking for justifications not to find Him, then He is most probably going to leave you to it.

    ReplyDelete
  109. BTW, I've not only read The Doors of Perception, but I've lived it. About ten years of my own journey was spent as a psychedelically inspired pantheist, before I really grokked Catholicism.

    As I recommended to Djindra upthread, you might really (and I mean really) enjoy the book Meditations on the Tarot. It is directly addressed to someone with the outlook I had, and might speak quite clearly to your particular outlook, also.

    In the end, God is Someone, and not just the conclusion of an argument. Aquinas himself regarded all of his own work to be "mere straw" (but not incorrect, for all that) after an encounter he had with God.

    ReplyDelete
  110. At stage three, you realize that these desperate attempts to ward off nihilism aren't going to work, and you reach the conclusion that we live in an austere universe devoid of any morals or meaning. Nevertheless, you think that this view of the world is rationally obligatory in light of modern science.

    Or you realize that the lack of any 'external objective meaning' only means that it falls to us to make our own meaning.

    ReplyDelete
  111. Matteo said:

    I realize this probably all strikes you as arrogant, but honestly, if what I've said is the case, it's the case. And I believe quite strongly, based on my own experience, that it is the case. What would be arrogant for me would be to pretend otherwise.

    Yes, but most unfortunately that – the “Ground of Being and the Unlimited” – is only your definition of God, and a great many other people have and have had some slightly or wildly different ones – some of which have led them to some rather reprehensible acts – and they have all believed with as much certainty as do you. Not a particularly good recommendation, methinks.

    Even if it’s an iffy proposition – maybe on par with hunting the Snark (an “impossible voyage of an improbable crew to find an inconceivable creature") – I think I’ll put my money on trying to understand the common factors and motivations as being the best bet ....

    ReplyDelete
  112. @Steersman:

    I have no problem with that. If he wishes to say “I believe God exists and I really, really, really want God to exist. But, of course, I don’t have any proof that He does.”

    As I first (I think) introduced the idea of wanting God to exist in this, I thought I might comment here.

    I do not think anyone ever lives in either one of two ways:

    1) I really want X to be true, so that, even though I have no evidence of X, I will believe it;

    2) I will never believe X until it is proved to me beyond any possibility of doubt.

    Steersman, in the quote above, said "even though I have no proof." I think the word 'prove,' and its derivatives, is being used in many of these comments in ways that do not really apply.

    I married my wife. I had evidence that she loved me. If she did, I thought it a very good thing that I should marry her, so I did. I did not, however, have proof.

    I might be given strong evidence that moving to another town than my own would be good for me - but the benefits to me of moving - and the costs of moving - are such that I cannot imagine doing so.

    I had said that, whilst I think I have good evidence that God exists, that He should is in fact so enormously desirable that I chose to believe in Him. Since that first decision, I think I have vastly stronger evidence for its validity - as I have for the (far less important) decision to marry my wife.

    Is it proof? If, by that, you mean something which, once understood, cannot possibly be doubted, then, no, it is not proof.

    But we just don't live like that.

    Much has been said in this set of comments that appears to take the position that the theist has no evidence whatever for his position - and on the part of the theists, that the atheist position is simply ridiculous. It seems to me that neither approach is likely to be helpful - and in fact many of the comments have seemed so off-putting in tone that I have been reluctant to comment more.

    But I do think it worth thinking about actual life. If proposition X is put to me, I do not receive it in a vacuum. If someone tells me I should believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and that if I do, I will be much happier - well, I don't see any evidence whatever, nor any need.

    But there is evidence of the truth, not only of God, but of Christianity. There is all those old writings about the Resurrection. That's evidence. It's the fact that someone seemed to have thought it happened.

    And the things Christianity offer are such that I think that if there is any real likelihood of its being true, I am jolly well going to find out.

    But ... there are atheists, and there atheists. To refer to Ed Feser's original post (which these comments appear very much to have drawn away from :-)), the very interesting thing about atheists is that are those who don't care enough about what theists believe - and would never both to get into a blog about it - and those who appear to care very much, indeed.

    Clearly we have the latter here.

    Anyway... Desire to believe is not enough - but absolute deniable proof is not available, either for that or for much of anything that is of interest.

    Now could you guys maybe try to concentrate on issues instead of on one another's supposed stupidity and bad motives?

    jj

    ReplyDelete
  113. Steersman,

    Fair enough. At some point, though you're going to need to come into the water (one way or another, along some vector or another) rather than standing on shore trying to figure out who is really swimming and who isn't. One can't learn to swim from mere theorizing and by making observations that some people are not all that good at it. You won't always be able to keep your hair dry, if you really do want to cross the water.

    ReplyDelete
  114. jj--

    Very good points, all. I've recently had sort of an ah-ha experience that has drained a lot of my displeasure toward atheists. I realized that if one hasn't experienced God, why then, one hasn't experienced God, so why in the world wouldn't one be an atheist? Why in the world wouldn't sound theistic arguments sound like pure nonsense?

    I heartily agree with what you said:

    "That He should [exist] is in fact so enormously desirable that I chose to believe in Him. Since that first decision, I think I have vastly stronger evidence for its validity..."

    I would appeal to the atheists to "screw what the Christians have to say about God, if you must, but do search diligently for that being that is better and smarter than any of us can possibly imagine. If you find Him, then consider what the Christians have to say." It's what did the trick for me.

    ReplyDelete
  115. Anonymous,

    "Why should the idea that something is difficult to override and causes other destructive issues mean that something is WRONG?"

    Are you by any chance the same Anonymous who claimed God can't be wrong when committing global genocide? If so, wrongness is not likely a topic we'll agree upon.

    Wrongness is not exactly the same as ought-ness, although I agree it's the ultimate target. Nevertheless, we can chip away at ought even now. For example, Joe smokes. Ought he quit? The "ought" in that question has changed significantly in the last two hundred years chiefly because of science. It's a small step but knowledge generally advances in small steps.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Steersman,

    "...in my example, the effect of domino B or C tipping over was supposedly somehow actually present in domino A - just in the bare fact of A standing still in a certain position relative to B or C."

    It appears we see some of the same problems. I try to keep in mind that this domino example is merely a metaphor. The A-T interest is in a chain of being rather than a sequence of events. IMO, the domino example hides the fact that a lot more is going on than falling dominoes.

    ReplyDelete
  117. But there is evidence of the truth, not only of God, but of Christianity. There is all those old writings about the Resurrection. That's evidence. It's the fact that someone seemed to have thought it happened.

    Yet that is a very poor standard of evidence... after all if "someone seemed to have thought that it happened" counts as positive evidence for Christianity then it is also positive evidence for just about ever other religion out there these days (after all didn't L. Ron Hubbard thought enough about his ideas to write them down).

    ReplyDelete
  118. @StoneTop:
    But there is evidence of the truth, not only of God, but of Christianity. There is all those old writings about the Resurrection. That's evidence. It's the fact that someone seemed to have thought it happened.

    Yet that is a very poor standard of evidence... after all if "someone seemed to have thought that it happened" counts as positive evidence for Christianity then it is also positive evidence for just about ever other religion out there these days (after all didn't L. Ron Hubbard thought enough about his ideas to write them down).


    Naturally I believe there is very convincing evidence for the Resurrection of Christ. My point was not to present that evidence, but to say that even the small sort of evidence implied in my statement, combined with the enormous consequences of its being true, motivates the enquiry.

    Before I had heard of Christ, I had been a fairly keen student of L. Ron. There was certainly enough evidence there - coupled with sufficiently desirable consequences if true - that I tried to follow along that line.

    When the offer of Christ - which I had never heard before - was presented to me, I knew I had to find out more.

    jj

    ReplyDelete
  119. Hi Ed,

    I would have responded sooner, but I didn't realize there was a second page of comments after the first 200!

    I think we basically agree that Dawkins has some 1ish and some 2ish tendencies. I think you're also right that Dawkins is mostly unfamiliar with the metaphysical assumptions employed by someone like Aquinas and so fails to understand why the arguments Aquinas makes might ever have seemed persuasive. I think Dawkins would admit as much but doesn't see this as a serious shortcoming for his purposes (not as a philosophical historian but as a popularizer). From your standpoint the point is not just that Dawkins is being uncharitable, but that he's being ignorant and anti-intellectual, as if a politician wrote a book arguing strongly against quantum field theory (who is he to think he knows anything about this?). I think it's helpful here to draw a distinction between what one might call "metaphysical scienticism" and what one might call "empirical scientism". You see Dawkins as a metaphysical scientist, someone committed to claims along the lines of "Every truth about the world can be validated with empirical evidence" - on this view, if Dawkins could somehow be made to think carefully and learn about the arguments for his position, he would be forced to abandon them because of their logical inconsistency. I read Dawkins as endorsing "empirical scientism". He's not interested in making absolute and precise claims about the nature of truth or the epistemology of knowledge. He's interested in asking what the modes of reasoning that have been demonstrated to work (either to make successful predictions or to convince others) imply about the world and he's going to consciously ignore everything else except what has generated results.

    Now, when I take a similar view you respond that it is self-defeating to ignore metaphysics because the claim that it's better to rely on modes of reasoning which have demonstrated power to convince / generate consensus" is itself metaphysical. Fair enough, but we can still be "minimalist metaphysicians" - we just need to defend that claim in detail, and I think a version of it can be defended without resolving the vast majority of metaphysical controversies (e.g. one doesn't need to presume an Aristotelian or naturalistic philosophy to evaluate a claim such as this). My guess is that in fact our disagreement here will ultimately revolve mostly around psychological and sociological issues regarding why people come to believe things and how they can be convinced (i.e. empirical questions), but that remains to be seen!

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete
  120. (continued)

    What I am trying to understand is what it means for you to think that you have convincingly demonstrated a claim akin to "Aristotelian metaphysics is the appropriate way to ground scientific reasoning" (my quote, not yours). I presume that you would agree with something like the following claim:

    "If another philosopher could read and carefully consider everything you have written on the issue and every argument you have made in good-faith as well as everything you have read which is relevant, then they would be persuaded to agree with your position regardless of what additional knowledge they might possess."

    The main metaphysical claim I would make is that this is a necessary condition for you to have demonstrated something. If you agree with that, then what we really have is a sociological question about what prevents the above ideal conditions from obtaining and whether we are justified in inferring anything from the diffusion of philosophical beliefs given the actual conditions which do obtain. I think that we can (i.e. I think that the fact that you have failed to convince other philosophers tells us something about the validity of your argument, and about the validity of metaphysical arguments in general), but before defending that claim and explaining why it is not a "universal acid", I'd like to hear why you think you have not convinced your colleagues.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Verbose Stoic,

    "few people actually conflate science and scientism.

    It's often used merely to denigrate an attempt by science to step on someone's toes.

    Technically, I personally said both ... and not getting the distinction is proof of your inability to grasp philosophy.

    I grasp that philosophers often contradict themselves.

    Technology and engineering require the empirical, but don't require empiricism. Thus, the distinction and the solution to the purported contradiction.

    A muddled attempt, IMO.

    "That 'It has to work' was a major consideration does not mean that working is used to the extent that it is used today, where it has become the only criteria worth considering. And I highly doubt that that was the case, even in Bacon,"

    What do you think Bacon's other concerns were?

    "In short, you rely on things that are not science while in the same breath insisting that science is all that's worth considering."

    I did not say science was the only thing worth considering. I do say it is by far the best thing to consider when it can address a problem within its scope.

    "...the fact that my whole point was that science and philosophy are separate but that science is underpinned by philosophy seems to have escaped you."

    It hasn't escaped me. I'm just not convinced that statement means much. Ultimately it relies on a very broad definition of philosophy which is tantamount to claiming all thought is philosophy. It eventually devolves into the absurd conclusion that dogs learn by experience and are therefore empiricists and are therefore philosophers.

    ReplyDelete
  122. I think Dawkins would admit as much but doesn't see this as a serious shortcoming for his purposes (not as a philosophical historian but as a popularizer).

    Another way of putting it is that Dawkins doesn't necessarily need to know anything about the arguments or ideas he's trashing in order to trash them, or convinced uninformed people that they aren't worth taking seriously.

    You can't save a young earth creationist's inaccuracies regarding his criticisms of evolution by saying "Oh, well he's a popularizer, not a biologist". You can't save Dawkins the same way either.

    I read Dawkins as endorsing "empirical scientism". He's not interested in making absolute and precise claims about the nature of truth or the epistemology of knowledge. He's interested in asking what the modes of reasoning that have been demonstrated to work (either to make successful predictions or to convince others) imply about the world and he's going to consciously ignore everything else except what has generated results.

    According to what idealized view of Dawkins?

    This is the guy who, while not willing to commit to God not existing, still thinks that "the existence of God is a scientific hypothesis like any other", and that he can guesstimate (and scientifically, no less) the likelihood of God existing by looking at the universe and deciding if it looks like something God made in his view. He's more than happy to throw out claims, such as religious upbringing being more damaging to children than actual child abuse - where's the scientific support for that claim, by the way? And like it or not, his criticisms of Aquinas weren't a criticism of metaphysics in general, but were claims that Aquinas was wrong - and Dawkins clearly had no idea what Aquinas was even arguing.

    The idea that Dawkins sticks to science and rejects metaphysical and philosophical argument is poorly supported. The reality seems to be that Dawkins loves to dabble in philosophy and metaphysics, but that he does it poorly, yet also doesn't like to be questioned.

    The main metaphysical claim I would make is that this is a necessary condition for you to have demonstrated something.

    And what if someone comes to the argument with different axioms, different presuppositions, or even different intuitions? And are you really going to make the argument that, if someone presents an argument and fails to convince their colleagues, we can discover from that alone that their view is either invalid or cannot rationally be held?

    ReplyDelete
  123. Steersman said…deranged, demented, depraved, draconian, pathological, psychopathic, psychotic, sadistic monster. [Sorry; got carried away

    Yeah, once you start being serious and open-minded, it's hard to stop….

    But this “my country, my religion, my philosophy right-or-wrong” – group-think at its worst

    That's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? "I have consensus, you group-think, he's a brainwashed conspirator."

    ReplyDelete
  124. Dawkins whole book is no better than Kirk Cameron's & Ray Comoforts Banana argument for the existence of God.

    I watch it and I cringe. I know there are intelligent Atheists like Ruse or Nagel who read Dawkins and cringe as well.

    That gives me hope. That and Grace from above.

    ReplyDelete
  125. I know there are intelligent Atheists like Ruse or Nagel who read Dawkins and cringe as well.

    Ruse?! Are you serious? Nagel, sure. Others, sure. But Ruse is a halfwit.

    Just sayin'.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Hi Pattsce,

    I appreciate your remark and I think it helps clarify things.

    I agree with you that Ed means "more well established" in the sense that you say. But I think it's quite relevant to Dawkins and my point that it is *not* more well-established in the sense that I mean - namely, that of persuading other experts that it is the right way to think about things. I agree as I note above that Dawkins' reasoning is not "metaphysical presumption-free". But I don't think Dawkins is being intellectually dishonest or unforgivably ignorant by not engaging with Aristotelian metaphysics precisely because this is not well-established in my sense. If you wrote a book about evolution without discussing natural selection you would be either dishonest or ignorant, but if you wrote about the same topic without discussing punctuated equilibrium, we might question the validity of your account as intellectual history, but you haven't committed an intellectual sin. Aristotelian metaphysics might be important to Catholic intellectual history, but it is not so well-established that it is wrong to ignore it in a popular treatment of modern arguments for God's existence. You might ask, "Why engage with Aquinas at all if he is unwilling to explain the underpinnings which might make Aquinas' arguments persuasive?" Perhaps he would have done better not to mention Aquinas for this reason, although I think his point here was just that a version of these arguments haspopular currency so he thought it was worth explaining why they are unpersuasive given his metaphysical presumptions.

    Now you and Feser are undoubtedly justified in thinking that many atheists make assumptions without seriously inquiring into what reasons they have for thinking those assumptions true and you may be right that Dawkins has not considered this question especially deeply (whether that makes him more likely to be wrong is a different question entirely!). The same is of course true of people of all intellectual stripes. You're right that some atheists make stupid arguments and should be called out for doing so and I'm sure that if I read it carefully enough I would find some of the arguments in The God Delusion stupid. But I think most of the criticism levied at him on this blog just misunderstands what he is trying to do and where is coming from.

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete
  127. (continued)

    I agree that your quoted claim, "Modern science has shown that all of that metaphysical stuff is unnecessary or just plain stupid; you're being unscientific, just like the rest of the religious sheep" is too strong (even without the last phrase inserted). But I agree with the spirit of a weakened version. Modern science has not shown that metaphysical stuff is unnecessary, rather, it has established a set of methodologies which are successful in reasoning about the world. The remaining modes of reasoning - metaphysics - have not proven their worth. So people who learn more about scientific reasoning are more likely to be able to draw correct inferences about the world than people who learn more about metaphysical reasoning because metaphysics is in this sense extremely speculative (and I'm saying this as whose non-expert opinion based on the opinions of others is that String Theory is probably on the right track - I have no aversion to speculative ideas, I just see metaphysics as several rungs up the chain of speculation from even the most speculative scientific theories). So I don't see the line between science and metaphysics as akin to say the line between chemistry and biology (some people are experts in one and some experts in another). Instead, I see it as the line between topics we know how to reason about and topics we don't know how to reason it. In my view, the problem isn't that the scientists are incurably ignorant of metaphysics, but that the metaphysicians think they know something it is possible to be ignorant of (beyond that is the intellectual history of which arguments have been made before by which people). I just don't see why we should think that is the case.

    ReplyDelete
  128. In my view, the problem isn't that the scientists are incurably ignorant of metaphysics, but that the metaphysicians think they know something it is possible to be ignorant of (beyond that is the intellectual history of which arguments have been made before by which people). I just don't see why we should think that is the case.

    Part of the problem is that for all your talk of the lack of value, or at least trustworthiness, of metaphysical reasoning*, scientists still engage in it. Dawkins' position is not that we cannot reliably reason about God and thus should not speculate about Him in one way or the other. It's one of active denial, of arguing that this or that observation renders God extremely unlikely. But this is back to philosophy and metaphysics.

    (* Though apparently you trust it enough to establish the superiority and near-exclusivity of science as a valid way of knowing. Huh.)

    But I don't think Dawkins is being intellectually dishonest or unforgivably ignorant by not engaging with Aristotelian metaphysics precisely because this is not well-established in my sense.

    And one of the problems with Dawkins precisely was that he *acted as if* he was 'engaging with Aristotilean metaphysics', or at least the arguments of Aquinas. It's not that he said "metaphysics is pointless, to hell with it", but that he thought he was doing metaphysics well, when in reality he was doing it poorly.

    ReplyDelete
  129. Anonymous 9:26 pm (it is easier to respond if you have a name),

    Just a few quick remarks since I don't want to get engaged in too many separate discussions at once.

    "He's more than happy to throw out claims, such as religious upbringing being more damaging to children than actual child abuse."

    I suspect that is a serious misquote or taken out of context, but feel free to prove me wrong...

    "And are you really going to make the argument that, if someone presents an argument and fails to convince their colleagues, we can discover from that alone that their view is either invalid or cannot rationally be held?

    Not exactly that, but if you add some qualifications, then yes. If you believe something strongly, you fail to convince others of this fact, and you have no reason to think that you have considered something relevant to the issue that they have not considered, that is a very good sign that your initial confidence was misplaced.

    ReplyDelete
  130. I suspect that is a serious misquote or taken out of context, but feel free to prove me wrong...

    "By all means, let's kick a nasty institution when it is down, but there are better ways than litigation. And an obsessive concentration on sexual abuse by priests is in danger of blinding us to all their other forms of child abuse."

    "Only a minority of priests abuse the bodies of the children in their care. But how many priests abuse their minds? Why aren't Catholics and ex-Catholics lining up to sue the church into the ground, for a lifetime of psychological damage?"

    And on and on it goes in that article.

    Not exactly that, but if you add some qualifications, then yes. If you believe something strongly, you fail to convince others of this fact, and you have no reason to think that you have considered something relevant to the issue that they have not considered, that is a very good sign that your initial confidence was misplaced.

    So, the fact that various atheists have argued William Lane Craig and have had the majority of the audience consider WLC the winner is evidence that numerous atheists were wrong? The fact that numerous atheists walked away from Jerry Coyne and PZ Myer's dispute over the possibility of evidence for God should have rationally impelled both men to regard their views as wrong - after all, there were substantial numbers who failed to be persuaded by the other side. Should Dawkins' failure to convince many people have him re-evaluating his '6.9 out of 7' or ~98% confidence level in the non-existence of God?

    Examples aside, don't you think your claim is a bit silly and idealistic? That, while the possibility of being wrong is always out there, that it's ridiculous to assume that an inability to persuade other people "strongly suggests" that you are wrong?

    ReplyDelete
  131. Here's the link I neglected to include, complete with Dawkins downplaying sexual abuse and suggesting that the doctrine of hell is a more severe form of abuse.

    Not that he's suggesting people sue the church for that, mind you. Because, you know. Suing people for child abuse is irresponsible, what with it often not being a big deal in his eyes.

    ReplyDelete
  132. The woman herself said that the religious mental abuse was far worse than the sexual abuse:

    Her view now is that, of these two examples of Roman Catholic child abuse, the one physical and the other mental, the second was by far the worst. She writes:

    ReplyDelete
  133. Alyosha said:
    Mon 9/19/2011 12:06 PM

    The brick causes the window to move. And though these events stand in a temporal order, the objects have unique causal relations to one another. In this way, a [series] of cause-effect events could be temporally spaced even though each cause is simultaneous with its effect.

    Sorry, but that really doesn’t seem to hang together all that well. Seems to me that you’re neglecting the apparent fact that each effect is also a cause, otherwise the links in the chain are not connected.

    Consider that if A caused B and B causes C and C causes D, and also that – as per Dr. Feser’s “a series of simultaneous causes and effects” – A and B are simultaneous and B and C are simultaneous and C and D are simultaneous then that would apparently have to mean that A and D are simultaneous.

    That would apparently seem to illustrate the problem with Aristotle’s physics – which even Feser apparently acknowledged was “lacking”. Aristotle had some useful ideas, some of which are still useful, and they provided a frame of reference and some starting points, but that shouldn’t lead us to think they were perfect or without their own intrinsic flaws. As the examples of astrology and alchemy and Ptolemaic cosmology should confirm.

    ReplyDelete
  134. DNW said...
    September 19, 2011 3:21 PM

    Interesting response – thanks. Take me some time to “unpack” and understand that and respond even half-way adequately and may have to try to do so over several posts and some time. However, as a starting point:

    Why ask me? I haven't read Feser's The Last Superstition, nor am I defending it, nor do I claim to speak for him.

    Mea culpa if I’ve misunderstood where you’re “coming from”, but your fairly impassioned criticism and characterization of, apparently or at least, some gnu-atheists as those who only “want what they want simply because they want it” led to my concluding that you were excluding Dr. Feser and company from that “obloquy” (my new word for the week). Hence, my efforts to point out that, in spite of his efforts to characterize his philosophy as being based on logic and reason, that philosophy looked to me – based on some apparent logical flaws – as exhibiting the same motivations as those you ascribed to Harris and company. Two sides of the same coin in many ways, in many cases – unfortunately.

    But relative to that, I’m curious about your comment about Harris’ spectacular failure to try and found his objective ethics on something ‘objective’ and not arbitrary. Seems to me that we all want one thing or another, whether we want to want or not – maybe even the nihilists who might only want out – and you seem somewhat nonplussed about that fact or don’t, apparently, have a solution for that state.

    I’ll argue or agree that we “ought” to be aspiring to “the discipline of the instinct by the heart and mind”, to the tempering of those wants, but many of the criteria by which those are done are somewhat subjective themselves, although the bottom-line ones seem the question of personal survival and to maximize the sum-total of human happiness. It might have been nice if there had actually been, equivalently in any case, some stone tablets, but absent those all we can do is make the best choices we can under the circumstances.

    ReplyDelete
  135. The woman herself said that the religious mental abuse was far worse than the sexual abuse:

    Oh, sure. Single testimony from one woman. So, we should accept this and extrapolate it the way Dawkins did.

    The power of science at work!

    ReplyDelete
  136. Did you ever read The God Delusion? Dawkins has a whole chapter (#9, some 30 pages) on the topic of "Childhood, Abuse and the Escape from Religion". And he quotes therein the psychologist Nicholas Humphrey on the topic who has a very good paper on it as well on the Net.

    Weren't we talking earlier about "my country, my religion, my philosophy, right-or-wrong"? I'm quite willing to consider questionable behavior on the part of various individuals in the secular communities, as has Jason and even P.Z. Myers, but there does need to be a little quid pro quo here.

    (P.S. A name to your posts would be a courtesy - you know others post under the same handle which is as confusing as hell; maybe something you're not overly concerned about.)

    ReplyDelete
  137. Did you ever read The God Delusion? Dawkins has a whole chapter (#9, some 30 pages) on the topic of "Childhood, Abuse and the Escape from Religion". And he quotes therein the psychologist Nicholas Humphrey on the topic who has a very good paper on it as well on the Net.

    Wow! A paper by a psychologist that you thought was good! And he wrote 30 pages on the topic in his popular book! I must have missed the scientific demonstration that teaching children about hell or raising them with religious teachings is equivalent or worse to sexual abuse.

    I did miss it, right? It isn't because the data does not exist and Dawkins is just being a blowhard and working off anecdotes and wild speculation, right? Because he relies so damn much on science after all.

    Weren't we talking earlier about "my country, my religion, my philosophy, right-or-wrong"? I'm quite willing to consider questionable behavior on the part of various individuals in the secular communities, as has Jason and even P.Z. Myers, but there does need to be a little quid pro quo here.

    Yeah, you whipped out a bumpersticker phrase, good for you. And wow, PZ Myers said he's willing to consider that some 'secular' individuals may have done something wrong. Heartwarming. I'm pointing out that Dawkins is not some golem who is powered by the power of empirical measurement and science. In fact, he's more than willing to abandon science and engage in either metaphysics or unscientific reasoning whenever he wishes.

    And quid pro quo? What, you'll cop to some criticisms of Dawkins and company, maybe, but only if there's an equal exchange in criticisms of religious people? More scientific reasoning, I'm sure.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Wow! A paper by a psychologist that you thought was good! And he wrote 30 pages on the topic in his popular book!

    I take it then that you didn't read it. Some more "in-group morality and out-group hostility" for your files .... if you ever decide to read something that might conflict with Church dogma ...

    ReplyDelete
  139. I take it then that you didn't read it. Some more "in-group morality and out-group hostility" for your files .... if you ever decide to read something that might conflict with Church dogma ...

    I'm asking for the data - the empirical tests that show that religious upbringings of children and teaching them religious beliefs does equivalent or greater harm than sexual abuse.

    I take it you admit that Dawkins was not basing his claims on any such empirical, scientific data? Where are the experiments, the tests, the peer review? Or does pontificating on anecdotes and speculating loosely about personal beliefs on rights substitute nicely?

    BTW, again I love the quid pro quo line. 'Let us reject my country, my religion, my philosophy right or wrong - but I'm not about to admit any criticisms of these things unless I stand to gain by it.'

    The spirit of science is clearly animating you, eh?

    ReplyDelete
  140. Anonymous 10:21 pm:

    "So, the fact that various atheists have argued William Lane Craig and have had the majority of the audience consider WLC the winner is evidence that numerous atheists were wrong?"

    Nope, because the audience are not experts and don't have the relevant background to evaluate the claims being made, and even if they did, the length of the debate does not give them the time to do so.


    "The fact that numerous atheists walked away from Jerry Coyne and PZ Myer's dispute over the possibility of evidence for God should have rationally impelled both men to regard their views as wrong - after all, there were substantial numbers who failed to be persuaded by the other side."

    Again, the same points above apply - the audience for an internet debate is in no sense a community of relevant experts. And of course I did not claim that a correct argument will immediately convince everyone even among experts. Given the non-ideal conditions that obtain in practice the best we can do is ask to what degree those who are exposed to a given argument are more inclined to believe it after seeing the argument than before, and to assess over time the degree to which this argument gains currency among those with relevant expertise.

    Those caveats aside, it would be informative to see a before and after poll of the people who have read all of the views from both sets of posts if it existed.

    "Should Dawkins' failure to convince many people have him re-evaluating his '6.9 out of 7' or ~98% confidence level in the non-existence of God?"

    That depends which people. Suppose we focus on people are experts in the topics in which Dawkins claims expertise so that he does not have any reason to think himself in a privileged epistemic position (which some are). We should further restrict attention to those who have considered his argument. If among those people, many or most still disagree with Dawkins position then he should revise his confidence in his own assessment (I am making the further presumption that Dawkins' assessment is based on his own arguments and not on some other arguments or deferral to the expertise of others).

    It appears however that the vast majority of people with comparable expertise to Dawkins share his views as is evidenced by many surveys of the religious beliefs of leading biologists.

    ReplyDelete
  141. I'm asking for the data - the empirical tests that show that religious upbringings of children and teaching them religious beliefs does equivalent or greater harm than sexual abuse.

    You might actually try reading that chapter for starters instead of just flapping your gums. But you might want to check with your doctor – I think your spleen is about to burst. In any case, there are quite a number of links and sites in the book you might want to check out including this one.

    BTW, again I love the quid pro quo line. 'Let us reject my country, my religion, my philosophy right or wrong - but I'm not about to admit any criticisms of these things unless I stand to gain by it.'

    Aim to please. Though that last seems to be your philosophy. But, just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the sexual abuse by Catholic Priests? Part of the services offered by the Church? Mandatory courses? Overly exuberant teachers? Can do no wrong?

    ReplyDelete
  142. You might actually try reading that chapter for starters instead of just flapping your gums. But you might want to check with your doctor – I think your spleen is about to burst. In any case, there are quite a number of links and sites in the book you might want to check out including this one.

    Great, then why not provide them explicitly here? Not a link to a site - a link to the research paper. The data and science, Steersman. Where is the data that backs up the claims that Dawkins has made about Catholic teaching and Christian teaching of religious beliefs to children in general? Not literature bluffing me with 'here's a good book to read or 'He wrote 30 pages and this psychologist wrote a paper where he thought that giving children a religious upbringing violated their rights'. Not a link to a website documenting the particular abuses of one small, crazy cult.

    You're spooked, Steersman. Because you know what I know: That the data is not there. Dawkins did not and does not have it. He pulled it out of his ass.

    And for all the talk about how much Dawkins and company relies on science, you know this is the case. You don't want to admit it - it's very important for you not to admit it.

    Quid pro quo. In group, out group. Your philosophy, your culture, your people, right or wrong. ;)

    Aim to please. Though that last seems to be your philosophy. But, just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the sexual abuse by Catholic Priests? Part of the services offered by the Church? Mandatory courses? Overly exuberant teachers? Can do no wrong?

    Try them if there is warrant to, convict them if the evidence is there, sentence them harshly.

    Nice bit of misdirection though. Quick, switch that subject - any subject but this one! 'Please, anonymous, don't make me admit that Dawkins and company happily ignore or even abuse science when it serves them to do so!'

    So much for the praise of science and experiment and empirical data. It's not science you love - it's being thought of as loving science that you enjoy. Big difference. And thanks for demonstrating it.

    ReplyDelete
  143. @ Anonymous:

    Seems the "Infallibility Cloak" extends its powers to every last individual, act, event and organization in the Church and its history since Day One. Nice. Where do I get one?

    ReplyDelete
  144. James,

    Nope, because the audience are not experts and don't have the relevant background to evaluate the claims being made, and even if they did, the length of the debate does not give them the time to do so.

    Interesting claim! I'll remember that down below.

    It appears however that the vast majority of people with comparable expertise to Dawkins share his views as is evidenced by many surveys of the religious beliefs of leading biologists.

    It's a damn shame that Dawkins and company don't have the relevant background to evaluate the claims being made then, eh? Biology is not 'the study of God or arguments for God's existence' or even, frankly, 'the study of teleology'. So it's a little like saying that the majority of owners of Dunkin Donuts franchises do not think the arguments for Darwinism are credible.

    And of course I did not claim that a correct argument will immediately convince everyone even among experts. Given the non-ideal conditions that obtain in practice the best we can do is ask to what degree those who are exposed to a given argument are more inclined to believe it after seeing the argument than before, and to assess over time the degree to which this argument gains currency among those with relevant expertise.

    Of course. And... what's the evidence that even after all this, such surveys and measures are reliable ways of determining whether or not a philosophical argument is correct and/or true? What scientific reason is there for me to give up a belief in an argument I think is good and compelling in the situation where - apparently - I wait over time for everyone to get the relevant knowledge of the argument, exposure to it, account for biases, etc?

    ReplyDelete
  145. Seems the "Infallibility Cloak" extends its powers to every last individual, act, event and organization in the Church and its history since Day One. Nice. Where do I get one?

    Because I didn't just say that any priests who engaged in such acts should be tried and if found guilty sentenced harshly, right?

    You may not have admitted to what I accused Dawkins of explicitly, Steersman. But man, did you ever do it implicitly. Thanks. ;)

    ReplyDelete
  146. Jason,


    ”It appears however that the vast majority of people with comparable expertise to Dawkins share his views as is evidenced by many surveys of the religious beliefs of leading biologists.”

    biology (b - l -j )
    The scientific study of life and of living organisms. Botany, zoology, and ecology are all branches of biology. – American Heritage Science Dictionary

    Remind me again why biology should be able to answer metaphysical questions? And how does a top biologist persuade a group specializing in, say, oh I don't know... philosophy?

    ReplyDelete
  147. Whoops - look away for one moment and Anonymous will steal your lunch! :)

    I was a bit slow on that reply, Jason; I leave you in Anonymous's capables.

    ReplyDelete
  148. djindra: "The "ought" in that question has changed significantly in the last two hundred years chiefly because of science."

    I'm surprised you still don't see this. There is no OUGHT in the science. Smoking may be harmful to health but there is no reason to suggest this is wrong in itself. You can't prove scientifically that it is morally correct to be healthy without presupposing some form of ethics. It may, for example, be better to lead a happier, shorter life than a longer less happy one without smoking.

    ReplyDelete
  149. @Stone Top:

    If you are still laboring under the delusion that we can create meaning for ourselves, and that this is just as good as living in a world with objective meaning, then you have not gotten to stage 3 yet. You are still stuck at 2.

    ReplyDelete
  150. If you are still laboring under the delusion that we can create meaning for ourselves, and that this is just as good as living in a world with objective meaning, then you have not gotten to stage 3 yet. You are still stuck at 2.

    That living in a world where objective meaning exists, and you have found that meaning, could be argued to be better then a world where there is no objective meaning (an argument that I don't agree with) does not make it true that there is objective meaning in the world.

    Also, I've had no problem creating 'meaning' for myself without needing that 'meaning' to be objective.

    ReplyDelete
  151. @Stone Top:

    The argument isn't that there *is* objective meaning in the world. The argument is that there cannot be objective meaning in the world *if* naturalism is true. It's a plea for consistency, not a positive argument.

    Saying that you can "make" something meaningful by "finding" meaning in it is like saying you can make a proposition true just by believing it or finding it plausible. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way with facts and it doesn't work that way with values either.

    If you are just a complex aggregate of molecules living in an objectively meaningless world, the things you "find" meaning in don't ultimately mean sh*t. Jean Paul Sartre had it right. In a meaningless universe, it doesn't matter whether you rule an empire or get drunk alone at home.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Untenured,

    If you are still laboring under the delusion that we can create meaning for ourselves, and that this is just as good as living in a world with objective meaning,...

    The alternative is the 'meaning' we give to cattle. That's what happens when an 'inferior' being accepts a 'superior' being's meaning. Are you a Quarter Pounder today? Who says you aren't? If there is anything objective in meaning it's to be found in the real world we can all access daily, not a spirit world nobody can access.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Anonymous,

    "Smoking may be harmful to health but there is no reason to suggest this is wrong in itself. "

    How do we define 'ought' if not in terms of helping us or harming us? Besides, if I were to recast 'ought' as 'final cause' I'm guessing you might see things differently.

    ReplyDelete
  154. Untenured said...
    The argument isn't that there *is* objective meaning in the world. The argument is that there cannot be objective meaning in the world *if* naturalism is true. It's a plea for consistency, not a positive argument.

    There can not be objective meaning, whether naturalism is true or not. Even if there were some sort of objective meaning to be known, it is filtered through the subjective lens of the individual.

    ReplyDelete
  155. >There can not be objective meaning, whether naturalism is true or not. Even if there were some sort of objective meaning to be known, it is filtered through the subjective lens of the individual.

    One wonders if you know that objectively to be true? OTOH you are an Atheist & a naturalist.

    Just saying.....

    ReplyDelete
  156. djindra,

    I think I can see where you are coming from here. Apart from anomalous questions like 'what do other universes look like?', there are no questions which science cannot answer.

    Now, if what science means is obsevation of the physical world, then the question is: how can you scientifically demonstrate that your view is true?

    ReplyDelete
  157. Even though I disagree with Anon over Ruse being intelligent(maybe we can at least agree he is more intelligent than Dawkins which I admit is not saying much) I wish to lend an assist here.

    Teaching children about Hell is child abuse? As opposed to what?

    Atheist: "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE AND CEASE TO EXIST! EVERY GOOD MEMORY YOU HAVE WILL BECOME NOTHING! ALL THE GOOD YOU DO WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING! EVERYONE YOU HAVE EVER LOVED WHO DIED IS NOW WORM FOOD! IF THEY WHERE MURDERED PAINFULLY THE PERSON WHO DID IT CAN GET AWAY WITH IT! THERE IS NO JUSTICE OR ULTIMITE MEANING TO ANYTHING!"

    (I take my inspiration from a scene from SCARY MOVE 3).

    Anyway I can see how much better that is & completely non-traumatic vs telling kids about a Hell they can avoid with Faith.

    Oh I'm so convinced!

    **Sarcasm Mode Cancel**

    On a serious note a responsible parent can explain the facts of life to a child they wish to raise in their worldview without scaring them. That goes for Atheists as well as Theists.

    ReplyDelete
  158. BTW I remember being told of Hell as a child. I don't remember being scared of it since at the time I conceived of it as a giant cosmic time out. The idea of suffering never really hit me till I got older but even then I learned a healthy fear of Hell. An obsessive fear is self defeating.

    ReplyDelete
  159. @Ben Yachov 7:07:

    Natalie Angier recounts a conversation she had with her daughter that almost exactly like that. She told her that her daughter screamed and cried and said she couldn't believe she was just go out of existence forever.

    In that same article, she wrote one of the most stupidly sentimental sentences ever penned by an atheist. I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like: "We are matter, which can never be created be created or destroyed, and as matter we will always matter and the universe will always be our home."

    Please! I almost threw up in my mouth when I read that.

    ReplyDelete
  160. BenYachov said...
    One wonders if you know that objectively to be true?

    What does "objectively true" mean whe3n discussing the need for a person to interpret what they find in order to understand it?

    OTOH you are an Atheist & a naturalist.

    Just saying.....


    Well, as long as you don't pret3end the comment was meaningful or significant.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Dan said...
    Now, if what science means is obsevation of the physical world, then the question is: how can you scientifically demonstrate that your view is true?

    Wow, it like the theists version of "Who created God?"!

    ReplyDelete
  162. BenYachov said...
    Atheist: "YOU ARE GOING TO DIE AND CEASE TO EXIST!

    Accurate.

    EVERY GOOD MEMORY YOU HAVE WILL BECOME NOTHING!

    Depends on the actions I take because of them.

    ALL THE GOOD YOU DO WILL AMOUNT TO NOTHING!

    The good you do affects thsoe you do good to, and the people they affect, and the people they affect. It spreads out like ripples in a pond, diffuse byt never-ending. Eventually, the good you do has an effect on every person on earth.

    EVERYONE YOU HAVE EVER LOVED WHO DIED IS NOW WORM FOOD!

    They live within you for as long as you remember them.

    IF THEY WHERE MURDERED PAINFULLY THE PERSON WHO DID IT CAN GET AWAY WITH IT!

    How is Christianity any different? There is certainly no guaranteed punishment there.

    THERE IS NO JUSTICE OR ULTIMITE MEANING TO ANYTHING!"

    There is something more important; the justice and meaning you create and share in the world.

    It would take a certain kind of theist to dream up that post.

    ReplyDelete
  163. "We are matter, which can never be created be created or destroyed, and as matter we will always matter and the universe will always be our home."

    Please! I almost threw up in my mouth when I read that.


    No doubt. The thought that an atheist could matter after death was probagbly quite difficult for you.

    ReplyDelete
  164. >What does "objectively true" mean...

    What does "What" mean?

    >Wow, it like the theists version of "Who created God?"!

    What do you mean by "theistic version of 'Who created God?'"?

    ReplyDelete
  165. >It would take a certain kind of theist to dream up that post.

    The purpose of the post is illustrated & vindicated by the Natalie Angier example.

    There is a prudent way to tell your children about the potentially unpleasant aspects of your ultimate metaphysical world view & then there is being a dick about it.

    Atheists have a right to tell their children there is no afterlife and it's not child abuse just because Angier is a ponce.

    In a like manner it's not child abuse to tell kids about Hell either. One must be rational and prudent about it.

    It's not hard.

    ReplyDelete
  166. In case you are slow on the uptake see Untenured post September 20, 2011 9:15 AM

    ReplyDelete
  167. @BenYachov:

    What do you mean by "theistic version of 'Who created God?’”?

    Presumably he means to compare the argument — some variation of “scientific discovery cannot (is not of the proper kind to) prove that scientific discovery is the only true method of obtaining knowledge knowledge, so scientific discovery either has no foundation or is not the only such method” — to that much-ridiculed response to the cosmological argument: “If everything has a cause, then what caused God?!”

    Frankly, I’m not at all sure why? This seems like the sort of thing the naturalist must simply grin and bear; there’s no way around it.

    ReplyDelete
  168. @One Brow:

    I have zero tolerance for people who want to relentlessly push skepticism and scientism at one moment, and then turn around and indulge in saccharine sentimentalism at the next. People who do this have no intellectual integrity.

    They want enough skepticism to refute the things they don't like, such as religion and its moral implications. But they don't want so much skepticism that it starts to threaten them personally and deprive of them of their cherished ideals.

    So they just help themselves to a blatant epistemic double-standard and they refuse to think through the implications of their skepticism.

    At bottom, they aren't really skeptics. They believe what they *want* to believe, and yet they have the gall to adopt the postures and mannerisms of someone who follows the evidence wherever it leads. It is cheap and duplicitous.

    ReplyDelete
  169. Steersman,

    Allow me to address you concerns as best as I may, but I also want to challenge you to take up the gauntlet and answer my previous question. Since you object to simultaneous causation, is it your position that the brick passed through the window before it gave way, or that the window gave way prior to contact with the brick? Or, as with the hand example, is it your position that the movement of the hand and the movement of the brick are not simultaneous?

    Sorry, but that really doesn’t seem to hang together all that well. Seems to me that you’re neglecting the apparent fact that each effect is also a cause, otherwise the links in the chain are not connected.

    And it seems to me that you neglect two facts, which I will try to address in turn. First, that a cause which is simultaneous with its effect can nevertheless produce an effect with longer duration. And second, that a cause with duration can be simultaneous to an effect with equal duration.

    As to the first: continuing with the example of the brick, it is obvious that even if the hand causes the brick to travel through the air, and even if the hand’s motion is simultaneous with that of the brick, the hand ceases to move forward after releasing the brick, but the brick continues in motion. And the brick’s doing so is logically consistent with the further claim that the hand’s causal activity in making the brick take motion is simultaneous with the bricks taking motion. However, given the consistency of this, it also follows that the effect, having duration, can still act as a cause toward further effects (such as moving the air in its flight) which are temporally removed from the initial cause.

    As to the second: I think an example might help to illustrate how two events with temporal duration can still be simultaneous.

    Consider for example, the instance of Newton and Leibniz inventing calculus. Only suppose it was a genuinely simultaneous even (rather than just approximately so) in that they were both going through the mental processes at the same time. In this case, they are both inventing calculus simultaneously in spite of the temporal duration involved with inventing calculus.

    Likewise, the motion of the hand taken as an event has temporal duration. The brick’s motion taken as an event also has temporal duration, and yet these two events are happening simultaneously. But, at each instance, the motion of the hand and the motion of the brick taken as an interaction between objects is simultaneous, and the hand stands in a causal relation to the brick.

    You only really create this problem by committing Feser to claims he never commits himself to such as that all causation is simultaneous, and that all causes are simultaneous.
    *continued*

    ReplyDelete
  170. Part 2:
    Consider that if A caused B and B causes C and C causes D, and also that – as per Dr. Feser’s “a series of simultaneous causes and effects” – A and B are simultaneous and B and C are simultaneous and C and D are simultaneous then that would apparently have to mean that A and D are simultaneous.

    Quite true, and there are causal relations where this would indeed hold true. For example, when the hand begins to move causing the brick to simultaneously begin to move, the brick’s motion would also simultaneously cause the air around it to move. But Feser never claims that all causes are such as this, nor that temporal duration of causes and effects does not hold true. You have provided these assumptions yourself.

    That would apparently seem to illustrate the problem with Aristotle’s physics – which even Feser apparently acknowledged was “lacking”. Aristotle had some useful ideas, some of which are still useful, and they provided a frame of reference and some starting points, but that shouldn’t lead us to think they were perfect or without their own intrinsic flaws.

    Quite true. And I suspect that Dr. Feser would agree with another Thomist of some reknown, F.C. Coppleston, that the perennial philosophy is something which grows and develops with time and accepts the truth of propositions even when they arise from other schools of thought. The point of Feser’s book isn’t to say that Aristotle’s physics was perfect (or even good for that matter). It is to defend a metaphysical tradition that has developed over time, and which is still developing.

    ReplyDelete
  171. James

    One Brow is in Troll mode & neither of us is rather fond of the other.

    So I wouldn't treat his nonsense seriously.

    If it where serious trying to figure it out is like pulling teeth with One Brow.

    He will change or reverse is apparent meaning at the drop of a hat.

    ReplyDelete
  172. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  173. @Untenured:
    I understand where you’re coming from, but you seem rather unnecessarily harsh. Irrespective of whether or not it makes sense for someone to give his “own meaning” to occurrences within a purely natural universe — which is a proposition to be argued, for or against — someone who does feel that there is some such meaning is surely entitled to a sentimental experience on occasion.

    You want, it seems, to say “I believe you’re wrong; from the perspective of a naturalist there is no meaning whatsoever. Thus if you feel that something is meaningful you are being duplicitous. Darn it, why can’t you be as cold and awful as I think you should be?” But that is not merely unkind but also assumes facts with which the opposite party would disagree.

    In short, a thoroughgoing naturalist would probably agree that any fuzzy feeling obtained from thinking about how (say)

    “But somewhere in the between, you lived the life of which we all dream
    And nothing and no one will ever take that away”

    … results from fully subjective meaning imposed by the individual. (If I am allowed a pop culture indulgence, which seems acceptable given Feser’s latest post.)

    ReplyDelete
  174. James

    Or it could be Untenured doesn't like the self-righteous double standards of the Gnu'Atheists and their asinine sophistry?

    Nothing more than that.

    Cheers.

    ReplyDelete
  175. @anonymous 11:28pm, 12:04am, 12:42am, 1:19am

    What you did do Steersman was beyond the pale, but i have captured it for posterity LOL

    Seriously though have you considered using a name, any name

    ReplyDelete
  176. I vote Anon should be called BenYachov2.

    What?

    ReplyDelete
  177. Wow, just read my posts again. Should have written them when I had more time! I hope I didn't bury all of my meaning in excessive punctuation and oddly-used figures of speech.

    ReplyDelete
  178. BenYachov said...

    I vote Anon should be called BenYachov2. What?

    So, you're admitting to being the Anonymous that I and Jason and others have been "conversing" with?

    ReplyDelete
  179. @BenYachov:

    Or it could be Untenured doesn't like the self-righteous double standards of the Gnu'Atheists and their asinine sophistry?

    I'm sure he doesn't. But he addressed his comments much more universally than that. To criticize Natalie Angier for her views, it isn't necessary to ridicule her for trying to comfort her daughter in the face of (what Angier believes) to be the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  180. James,

    To criticize Natalie Angier for her views, it isn't necessary to ridicule her for trying to comfort her daughter in the face of (what Angier believes) to be the truth.

    Right. Ridicule is only to be directed at religious people and religious parents, apparently.

    Untenured has a good point. There's this crazy-ass hypocrisy with some gnu atheists. Right up there with complaining about why most theists continue to have a low opinion of atheists and being outraged about that, and seeming to ignore the past few years of Blasphemy challenges, calling God a delusion and people who believe in Him deluded, and so on.

    Steersman,

    So, you're admitting to being the Anonymous that I and Jason and others have been "conversing" with?

    There's more than one anonymous, and really. Why in the world would Ben of all people be one? He's clearly already got an account and regular user name, and I *disagreed with him* on Ruse.

    Slow folks today.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Anonymous said:

    He's clearly already got an account and regular user name, and I *disagreed with him* on Ruse.

    Slow folks today.


    What the hell does that "prove" or suggest except maybe that starting down the road of "sock-puppetry" is found in more than one A-T theist?

    Seems like "slow" is something in the air or in the mind of the beholder.

    ReplyDelete
  182. >So, you're admitting to being the Anonymous that I and Jason and others have been "conversing" with?

    No I am not Anon. BTW are you kidding? I would love to take credit for some of his Zings! But alas it is wrong to lie.

    ReplyDelete
  183. I doubt the Anonymous is BenYachov. The lack of grammar, spelling & syntax errors is a dead give away. Sorry Ben.

    ReplyDelete
  184. I doubt the Anonymous is BenYachov. The lack of grammar, spelling & syntax errors is a dead give away. Sorry Ben.

    Ha ha ha I was going to say the exact same thing...much love Ben.

    ReplyDelete
  185. That was another clue. Anon has awsome spelling and grammar.

    Me not so much.......

    ReplyDelete
  186. I wonder? Anon? Who is he or she?

    The Masked Chicken? SecretAgentMan? Mark Shea? Who?

    ReplyDelete
  187. It would be awesome if Anon was Pete Vere!

    Pete's a very nice guy but he's also got that French Canadian thingy where his disses you for well not being French.

    OTOH Pete loves to rip into English Traditionalists for not being French?

    ReplyDelete
  188. I believe that Steersman is Richard Dawkins. And if he denies it, that denial ought to be interpreted as an attempt by him to cover up his execrable sock-puppetry!

    Get out of here, Dawkins.

    ReplyDelete
  189. Josh said... Ha ha ha I was going to say the exact same thing...

    Me three. That means we're all each other's sock-puppets, by the way. But not my fellow Anonymous (hi, brother!). You can tell we're different people because we don't pronounce our names the same way.

    ReplyDelete
  190. BenYachov said...
    >What does "objectively true" mean...

    What does "What" mean?


    So, you remove half the predicate and pretend to make a point.

    >Wow, it like the theists version of "Who created God?"!

    What do you mean by "theistic version of 'Who created God?'"?


    I didn't even use the phrase, therefore feel no need to describe what it means. However, I fully acknowledge dropping an apostrophe.

    Wow, it like the theists' version of "Who created God?"!

    The purpose of the post is illustrated & vindicated by the Natalie Angier example.

    A example you didn't witness, have not read a transcript of, and for all appearances are relying on third-hand testimony about. Why not take responsibility for the example you created.

    Children don't like the thought of death. they are just as likely to cry about hell as non-existence. I think we pretty much agree there.

    One Brow is in Troll mode & neither of us is rather fond of the other.

    What percentage of your posts do you think are devoted to telling poster A to disregard poster B? Is that really the type f memory you wish to imspire in others?

    ReplyDelete
  191. James,
    Presumably he means to compare the argument — some variation of “scientific discovery cannot (is not of the proper kind to) prove that scientific discovery is the only true method of obtaining knowledge knowledge, so scientific discovery either has no foundation or is not the only such method” — to that much-ridiculed response to the cosmological argument: “If everything has a cause, then what caused God?!”

    Frankly, I’m not at all sure why? This seems like the sort of thing the naturalist must simply grin and bear; there’s no way around it.


    I'm not describing a position I actually hold, but I do want to explain the comment further. I would say the holders of scientism (at least the version that seems to be routinely dismissed here), or the like, would say the notion of "the only true method of obtaining knowledge" lacks truth-content precisely because it can not be investigated empirically, and so referring to such statements as being true or false is irrelevant. Basically, saying that "it is true that only science can produce true statements" is not a statement of scientism, anymore than "everything that exists has a cause" is a statement of the ontological argument.

    ReplyDelete
  192. Jason said… You might ask, "Why engage with Aquinas at all if he is unwilling to explain the underpinnings which might make Aquinas' arguments persuasive?"

    Actually I was going to ask why you would call it "engaging" at all if he doesn't even deal with what Aquinas actually said. And if he was addressing a "version" of these arguments, why did he incorrectly ascribe them to Aquinas? And if the point was only to let us know that poorly constructed caricatures were unpersuasive to him, shouldn't that go without saying? (Then again, this is Dawkins, so….)

    But I think most of the criticism levied at him on this blog just misunderstands what he is trying to do and where is coming from.

    You mean it's OK for him to attack a straw man and falsely attribute it to one of history's great philosophers because lot of his readers would fall for it?? Where exactly are you going with this again?

    ReplyDelete
  193. Untenured said...
    I have zero tolerance for people who want to relentlessly push skepticism and scientism at one moment, and then turn around and indulge in saccharine sentimentalism at the next. People who do this have no intellectual integrity.

    You can back that up, right? YOu can demonstrate that push skepticism in one minute and be sentimental the next is actually incompatible intellectually? YOur not just some bag of anger and hot air expressing raw distaste in terms you find palatable?

    They want enough skepticism to refute the things they don't like, such as religion and its moral implications. But they don't want so much skepticism that it starts to threaten them personally and deprive of them of their cherished ideals.

    Why should skepticism deprive me of my ideals? I recognize my ideals for what they are due, in part, to sketicism.

    So they just help themselves to a blatant epistemic double-standard and they refuse to think through the implications of their skepticism.

    Well, thank goodness the Untenureds of the world are here to show me the implications of my skepticism. Please get started with the implicatory process (you know, axioms, prooofs, etc.).

    Also, please lay out the exact standard to which you think you are held that skeptics refuse to take for themselves.

    At bottom, they aren't really skeptics. They believe what they *want* to believe, and yet they have the gall to adopt the postures and mannerisms of someone who follows the evidence wherever it leads. It is cheap and duplicitous.

    When the evidence can't lead somewhere by the nature of where youwant to go, why should you not believe as you wish?

    ReplyDelete
  194. Anonymous said...
    Right. Ridicule is only to be directed at religious people and religious parents, apparently.

    Who are the atheists who say only theists should be ridiculed? If you say Myers or Dawkiins, I will laugh at you, just so you know, because I have seen them ridicule other atheists (Myers does so regularly).

    Right up there with complaining about why most theists continue to have a low opinion of atheists and being outraged about that, and seeming to ignore the past few years of Blasphemy challenges, calling God a delusion and people who believe in Him deluded, and so on.

    So, since you feel it's acceptable to judge atheists as a group by the actions of individuals, you'll never claim it's wrong to jusge theists as a group by the actions of individuals? I know how you hate hypocrisy.

    ReplyDelete
  195. The argument isn't that there *is* objective meaning in the world. The argument is that there cannot be objective meaning in the world *if* naturalism is true. It's a plea for consistency, not a positive argument.

    And? How does saying that there is no objective "meaning" in the world lead to any inconsistencies with naturalism?

    Saying that you can "make" something meaningful by "finding" meaning in it is like saying you can make a proposition true just by believing it or finding it plausible. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way with facts and it doesn't work that way with values either.

    That depends... If you mean that I cannot declare that what I find meaningful is what is objectively meaningful then yes... If you are saying that I cannot find something personally meaningful then no. I can find anything to be personally/subjectively meaningful (which does work with values).

    In a meaningless universe, it doesn't matter whether you rule an empire or get drunk alone at home.

    Objectively, yes... when the last black hole evaporates it won't 'matter' what a bunch of self-replicating/self-amusing proteins sandwiched between layers of clay thought or did. Now that does not mean that ruling an empire or getting krunked cannot matter to those involved.

    ReplyDelete
  196. Ephram said:

    I believe that Steersman is Richard Dawkins. And if he denies it, that denial ought to be interpreted as an attempt by him to cover up his execrable sock-puppetry!

    I very much doubt whether Dawkins would feel any need whatsoever to be posting under a pseudonym much less several of them – and very much less still any that are “anonymous”. I’ve seen his posts on other sites, notably Coyne’s and Myer’s, and his own site puts him front and center so he’s obviously not afraid of any who might wish to target him with attacks, rational or scurrilous.

    And relative to the latter you might want to take a look at a couple of pages of letters he’s received from various “theists” – of one brand or another – to see what a religious [“Christian”] “sensibility” leads some people to do. Now one swallow is hardly a spring – though, apparently, both Coyne and Myers have similar collections, but one would think that the myriad of such facts ought to lead people – rational ones anyway – to the conclusion – tentative or probable as the case may be – that maybe there’s something wrong with some of the basic premises underlying such “sensibilities”. [see TLS; pg 139]

    And, notably, this post of Eric MacDonald’s highlights the fact that the drift is starting to look like a stampede – at least in saner countries. So one might hope there’s less likelihood of a repeat of 9/11 – among a very long list of equally odious events.

    ReplyDelete
  197. @Anonymous:

    Right. Ridicule is only to be directed at religious people and religious parents, apparently.

    Baffling. I could've sworn that my carefully-typed responses concerned Untenured's apparent belief that naturalists must -- on pain of exhibiting duplicity -- behave as emotionless robots. Somehow, perhaps due to a random quantum fluctuation or a rupture in the space-time continuum, I have instead posted a statement to the effect that ridicule should only directed at the religious. My apologies, I simply must remember to double check against such vastly improbable typographical errors in the future.

    None of this could be foreseen, of course, so it's not your fault, but to set the record straight: you'll get no argument from me that ridicule should be met with ridicule. But when ridicule is neither useful nor reasonable, and phrased in an unsuitably general way (i.e. that it peeves someone whenever a naturalist expresses sentimentality), then it should be avoided.

    ReplyDelete
  198. One Brow nothing you say has any objective meaning.

    You equivocate at the drop of a hat and when your argument turns out to be a bust you pretend you where arguing about something else.

    Really what is the point of you? You are like djindra sans the psychotic left-wing conspiracy whinging.

    ReplyDelete
  199. Now James I have had little contact with and his posts seem reasonable to I will naturally extend the benefit of the doubt that he is not a Gnu.

    Steerman is starting to come around more to philosophy and is trying to defend Positivism. In time I think he will see how pointless that is & I am gratified he wants to read an intellegent Atheist like Quintin Smith.

    That should prove he clearly is not Dawkins.

    Stone Tops has potential.

    BeingItself is a Troll and so is djindra.

    One Brow can be a troll or rational depending on the time of day.

    So that is my take on the local Atheists. Remember Rational pro-philosophy Atheism is good. Scientism/Positivism Atheism is YEC for Infidels. Gnu'Atheism is fundie flat earther crap.

    I have spoken all hail BenYachov!

    ReplyDelete