Thursday, July 5, 2012

Atheistic teleology?

There has been a lot of talk in the blogosphere and elsewhere about former atheist blogger Leah Libresco’s recent conversion to Catholicism.  It seems that among the reasons for her conversion is the conviction that the possibility of objective moral truth presupposes that there is teleology in the natural order, ends toward which things are naturally directed.  That there is such teleology is a thesis traditionally defended by Catholic philosophers, and this is evidently one of the things that attracted Libresco to Catholicism.  A reader calls my attention to this post by atheist philosopher and blogger Daniel Fincke.  Fincke takes issue with those among his fellow atheists willing to concede to Libresco that an atheist has to reject teleology.  Like Libresco, he would ground morality in teleology, but he denies that teleology requires a theological foundation.

Atheism, teleology, and morality

Fincke writes:

Teleology should not be at all out of bounds for atheists.  Teleologists do not need to posit that there is an intelligent goal-giver who gives natural beings purposes to fulfill, as many theists think…

I am an atheistic virtue ethicist requiring no divine agency for the teleological dimensions of my ethics to make minimal sense and have minimal coherence.  I am just describing purely naturalistically occurring patterns as universals or forms.  I am saying that since humans’ very natures are constituted by a specific set of powers, fulfilling them is incumbent on humans as the beings that we are.  It is irrational and a practical contradiction to destroy the very precondition of our own being (all things being equal).  We have a rational imperative instead to flourish maximally powerfully according to the powers which constitute us ourselves.

Now there is some truth in what Fincke says, but it is not the whole truth and his account suffers from some systematic ambiguities.  On the one hand, I would agree that the teleological properties of natural substances, including human beings, can in principle be known whether or not one believes in God, precisely because they are natural.  That is what makes natural law possible.  You can know just by studying trees that their roots have among their natural ends the taking in of water and nutrients, and that it is objectively good for a tree that its roots carry out this function and bad for it if for some reason the roots are unable to do so.  You don’t need to make reference to God to see this.  By the same token, you can know just by studying human beings that it is objectively good for them to pursue truth, to show courage and resolution in the face of difficulties, to exercise self control in the indulgence of their appetites, and so forth, since without such virtues they would be unable to fulfill the ends of their various natural capacities.  No special reference to God is needed in order to see this either.  Not only do I agree with Fincke about that much, but I have made a similar point at length in a post from almost a year ago.  It is in my view a mistake for religious apologists to think they can go directly from the objectivity of morality to the existence of God.  

(For an overview of the Aristotelian-Thomistic approach to natural law ethics, see chapter 5 of Aquinas, chapter 4 of The Last Superstition, and roughly the first half of my Social Philosophy and Policy article “Classical Natural Law Theory, Property Rights, and Taxation.”)  

However, that is only part of the story, for three reasons.  First, all of this is true on an Aristotelian construal of the natural world, but it is not true on the conception of the natural world one finds in contemporary scientism and naturalism -- a conception to which most modern atheists are committed.  In particular, no construal of teleology consistent with modern naturalism and scientism can give you the kind of teleology necessary for objective morality.  More on this in a moment.

Second, while objective morality depends directly on an Aristotelian philosophy of nature rather than on theism, an Aristotelian philosophy of nature leads in turn to theism.  So, there is an indirect connection between the possibility of objective morality and theism.  That a natural substance has the teleological properties it does is something we can know just from studying the nature of the thing; no reference to God is necessary.  But how is it that anything ever in fact actualizes the potentials inherent in its nature?  That, as Aquinas’s First Way shows, is possible in principle only if there is an Unmoved Mover (or, to be more precise, an Unactualized Actualizer) which at every moment actualizes the potentials of things without itself having to be actualized in any way.  How is it that the ends things have by nature can be efficacious?  That, as Aquinas’s Fifth Way shows, is possible in principle only if there is a Supreme Intelligence which at every moment directs things toward their ends.  How is it that things can even exist at any moment, with the natures they have, in the first place?  That, as Aquinas’s Second Way (as I interpret it) shows, is possible in principle only if there is an Uncaused Cause of existence which at every moment sustains things in being without itself having to have existence imparted to it, precisely because it is not a being among others but Subsistent Being Itself.  (In this particular argument some distinctively Thomistic metaphysical ideas enter the picture.)  

(And so forth.  I will not pursue this topic here since I have defended the Five Ways at length elsewhere -- most fully in Aquinas and in my American Catholic Philosophical Quarterly article “Existential Inertia and the Five Ways,” with three of Aquinas’s arguments defended in a little less detail in The Last Superstition.  Some relevant blog posts can be found here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.)

Third, what was said above about the foundations of ethics applies to the content and justification of morality to a large extent, but not entirely.  For one thing, the fact that God exists naturally has moral implications of its own, and since the existence of God can be known through natural reason, there are certain very general religious obligations (such as the obligation to love God) that can be known through reason alone, and thus form part of the natural law.  (Indeed, these are our highest obligations under natural law.)  Then there is the fact that the natures of things, including human nature, derive ultimately from those ideas in the divine intellect which form the archetypes by reference to which God creates.  (In this way morality is neither independent of God nor grounded in arbitrary divine commands, as I explained in a post on the Euthyphro objection.)  

Furthermore, a complete account of moral obligation, specifically, requires reference to God as legislator (even if moral obligation can proximately be explained by reference to the natural end of the will).  Finally, divine revelation is also needed for a complete account of everyday moral life.  For divine revelation discloses certain details about morality that the human intellect is too feeble reliably to discover on its own; and some aspects of the natural law are so demanding that many people are capable realistically of living up to them only given the hope of a reward in the hereafter, of the sort divine revelation promises.  (I won’t pursue these issues further here either.  I discuss them at greater length in Aquinas.  And see chapter 8 of the first volume of Michael Cronin’s The Science of Ethics for a useful treatment of the proximate and ultimate grounds of moral obligation.)

Intrinsic, derived, and as-if teleology

Let’s look more closely at the sort of teleology required for objective morality.  As my longtime readers know, I have discussed the subject of teleology in a great many places, and I’m frankly pretty tired of repeating myself.  Lengthy treatments can be found in Aquinas, The Last Superstition, and my Philosophia Christi article “Teleology: A Shopper’s Guide.”  I have also said a lot about the subject here on the blog, especially in the many posts I’ve devoted to the dispute between Aristotelian-Thomistic (A-T) philosophy and “Intelligent Design” theory.  Here I’ll just summarize the points most relevant to the issue at hand.

Start with the distinction between natural substances, artifacts, and accidental arrangements drawn by Aristotle in the Physics, and which I discussed at length in a couple of earlier posts (here and here).  To borrow some examples from those earlier posts, a liana vine is a natural substance insofar as it has an inherent or immanent tendency toward certain ends -- exhibiting certain growth patterns, taking in water and nutrients, and so forth.  A hammock that Tarzan might make from living liana vines is an artifact rather than a natural substance insofar as, while the hammock has the end or function of serving as something suitable for sleeping in, the parts of the hammock have no inherent tendency toward this end.  That end is, instead, extrinsic to the parts, imposed from outside by Tarzan rather than flowing naturally from the parts themselves (as can be seen from the fact that left to themselves the vines will tend to grow the way they otherwise would have had Tarzan not interfered with them, including in ways that will impede their performance as a hammock).  A set of liana vines that have by chance grown into a pattern that looks vaguely like a cross is an accidental arrangement rather than either a natural substance or artifact.  For there is no natural or inherent tendency of such vines to grow into such a pattern, and neither did any artificer interfere with them so as to make them grow that way for the sake of achieving some externally imposed end, such as serving as a religious symbol.  

We might usefully think of these three kinds of object in terms of a distinction drawn by John Searle in a different context.  In his book The Rediscovery of the Mind, Searle differentiates between intrinsic, derived, and as-if intentionality.  Intrinsic intentionality is the sort thoughts have.  When you have the thought that the cat is on the mat, that particular content is intrinsic to or constitutive of the thought.  By contrast, the English sentence “The cat is on the mat,” while it has the same content, does not have it intrinsically but only in a derived way.  There is nothing in the shapes, ink marks, pixels, sounds or any other physical symbols and properties in which that sentence might be embodied that gives it its intentional content or meaning.  The meaning is rather imposed from outside by language users following certain conventions.  Finally, an arrangement of stones looking very vaguely like the word “on,” which has been made by chance as the stones tumbled to the bottom of a hill during an earthquake, do not possess any intentionality at all, though look as if they did.  That is to say, they look as if someone had arranged them for the purpose of expressing the meaning of the English word “on,” though in fact they were not and the appearance is entirely accidental.

Similarly, we might say that the teleology that the liana vines manifest qua liana vines is intrinsic, that the teleology they exhibit insofar as they have been arranged by Tarzan for the purpose of functioning as a hammock is derived, and that the entirely chance arrangement of liana vines into a form looking vaguely like a cross is a case of as-if teleology insofar as the vines were not really arranged for the purpose of representing a cross but merely appear as if they were.  (To forestall an irrelevant objection, yes, God could of course cause the vines to grow in such a way that they look vaguely like a cross, just as He could cause a tortilla to exhibit a burn pattern that looks vaguely like the Virgin Mary.  But whether He does this sort of thing or not -- and the usual examples are the stuff of the Weekly World News rather than having a serious claim to miraculous status -- the point is that such patterns could arise through chance rather than being the outcome either of a natural object’s typical activity or of artifice.)

Now, the traditional Aristotelian distinction between “nature” and “art” is essentially a distinction between, on the one hand, those phenomena exhibiting intrinsic teleology, and on the other, those having only derived or as-if teleology.  Another way to put the same point is that it is essentially a distinction between, on the one hand, those objects that have substantial forms and those having only accidental forms.  It is important to emphasize this because the language of “nature versus art” sometimes leads to misunderstanding.  In particular, it is sometimes mistakenly supposed that the Aristotelian is claiming that all man-made objects are in the relevant sense “artificial” and that everything that occurs without human interference is in the relevant sense “natural.”  But that is not the case.  Water synthesized in a lab is in an obvious sense “man-made,” but it is still as “natural” in the relevant sense as the water that exists in lakes and rivers, because its tendencies are intrinsic to it, the manifestation of a substantial form.   A pile of rocks that gradually forms at the bottom of a hill is not man-made, but it is also not “natural” in the relevant sense, because the arrangement constitutes only an accidental form and the rocks have no intrinsic tendency to form a pile.  It is because the paradigmatic examples (though not all examples) of phenomena exhibiting intrinsic intentionality involve no human interference, and because the paradigmatic examples (though not all examples) of phenomena resulting from human interference involve only derived rather than intrinsic teleology, that the traditional Aristotelian distinction is made in terms of “nature versus art.”  But this is a somewhat loose way of putting it.  Again, a more precise way of speaking would be to distinguish between substantial forms and accidental forms, or between intrinsic teleology on the one hand and derived and as-if teleology on the other.  

Now, it is only intrinsic teleology or substantial form that can ground goodness as an objective feature of things.  Taking in water and nutrients is good for liana vines -- it allows them to flourish in the sense of realizing their ends -- precisely because a tendency toward those ends is intrinsic to them.  That is why we say that liana vines that do so are good specimens of liana vines, while vines that fail to do so (because of disease, damage, or what have you) are bad specimens.  This standard of goodness or badness is entirely objective because it follows from the nature of the vines themselves rather than from our subjective attitudes about them or the purposes to which we might put them.  Of course, in the case of liana vines this standard of goodness or badness is not a moral standard.  But for the Aristotelian, moral goodness is just a special case of this more general sort of goodness.  Moral goodness is the kind that exists in rational animals (namely us) because, unlike liana vines and other non-rational substances, we can intellectually grasp the ends toward which our nature directs us and freely choose whether or not to pursue them.  (For more on this subject, see the writings of mine on natural law theory cited above.)

By contrast, there is no objective feature of a hammock that makes some things good for it and other things bad.  To be sure, we would say of a hammock which is fraying and ready to fall apart that it is a bad specimen of a hammock, and of a hammock that is more tightly constructed that it is a good hammock.  But that is to speak loosely.  For what makes a hammock good or bad has nothing to do with anything intrinsic to the liana vines (or whatever) out of which it is made, but concerns instead our purposes or ends in making it.  It is an entirely mind-dependent or conventional standard of goodness rather than one that is there in the nature of things themselves.  

It should be even more obvious that as-if teleology can provide no objective standard of goodness.  If we say of the liana vines that have by chance grown into something vaguely resembling a cross that they look like a “good cross” or a “bad cross,” we are again only speaking loosely.  Since they have no inherent tendency to grow into a cross in the first place -- that they have grown this way in this one case is the result of a chance convergence of other factors such as how they happened to have fallen, how they happened to have been rooted, how much water and nutrients they happened to have taken in, etc. -- there is no objective sense to be made of their being a “good cross” or “bad cross.”  If an artist had tried to make them grow this way, we could have said it is a “good cross” or “bad cross” in the sense that the artist’s craftsmanship was good or bad, or that his materials were more or less suitable for his ends.  But by hypothesis that is not at issue here either.  The most we could say is that it is as if the liana vines that have grown this way were a “good cross” or “bad cross.”  But this “as-if” goodness or badness is no more objective (or even in any way real) goodness or badness than as-if teleology is objective teleology, or as-if intentionality is real intentionality.

Naturalism and as-if teleology

Now, scientism and naturalism as they are typically understood can give you at most only as-if teleology and as-if objective goodness, but not the real thing.  The reason why will be obvious to readers of The Last Superstition and of the many other things I’ve written on the subject of the transition from Aristotelian-Scholastic to early modern philosophy.  Here too I am getting tired of having to repeat myself, so I will once again focus on just the points most directly relevant to the issue at hand.  (I also hasten to emphasize that the sketch of the history of this transition that I am about to give is by no means a purely partisan one.  Those familiar with the work of historians of early modern philosophy like Margaret Osler, Kenneth Clatterbaugh, Dennis Des Chene, and Walter Ott, and philosophers of science like Brian Ellis and Nancy Cartwright, will recognize the general themes.)

The transition in question involved a number of factors, but the central component was a rejection of the Aristotelian-Scholastic doctrine of formal and final causes in favor of a broadly “mechanistic” conception of nature.  There are features of the early mechanistic theories that did not survive -- for example, early proponents of the “mechanical philosophy” sought to reduce all causation to the push-pull variety, but that didn’t last long -- but the core idea was that the explanation of natural phenomena should make reference neither to substantial forms or immanent natures nor to intrinsic or “built in” teleology or final causes.  As Ellis has put it, the early moderns replaced the Aristotelian notion of active powers with an essentially “passivist” conception of nature.  For the Aristotelian-Scholastic tradition, by virtue of their substantial forms natural substances exhibit a directedness toward the generation of certain outcomes as toward a final cause.  Efficient cause thus presupposes final cause or teleology, which in turn presupposes substantial form.  Get rid of substantial form and final causality, and efficient causality in any robust sense -- any sense that entails an active tendency toward the generation of certain effects -- goes out the window with it.  That is precisely why Hume’s puzzles about causation and induction followed upon the early moderns’ anti-Aristotelian revolution.  What replaced active powers was the idea of natural phenomena as essentially passive -- as inherently directed toward no particular outcome at all -- on which certain “laws” have been imposed from outside.  If A tends regularly to generate B, that is, on this new view, not because of anything intrinsic to A itself, but rather because it is simply a “law of nature” that A will be followed by B.

But why does such a “law” hold?  The early moderns had a principled answer to this question.   They were theists, and took it that God had simply imposed on inherently passive matter certain patterns of activity.  Hence for Descartes, Newton, and Boyle it is not that no teleology or final causes exist at all.  Rather, natural teleology was reinterpreted as entirely derived rather than intrinsic.  Paley’s conception of the world as a kind of machine made by a divine artificer was the logical outcome of this way of thinking.  Like watches, hammocks, and other everyday artifacts, natural objects came to be seen as having essentially accidental rather than substantial forms.  The Aristotelian distinction between “nature” and “art” was dissolved, and the natural world was reinterpreted as a kind of divine artifact.

One implication of this is that goodness is no longer an inherent feature of natural phenomena, any more than it is an inherent feature of hammocks, watches, and the like.  Just as the goodness or badness of a hammock or watch is relative to the purposes of the makers and users of such artifacts, and has nothing to do with anything inherent to the parts of these objects themselves, so too on the view of nature associated with Descartes, Newton, Boyle and Paley, the goodness or badness of various human actions cannot intelligibly be seen to follow from anything inherent to human nature itself, but rests entirely on the purposes of the divine artificer.  Morality comes to seem no longer a matter of natural law but rather of sheer divine command.  That is not to say that the thinkers named were all actually committed to this sort of view about morality.  I’m talking about what the view of nature they championed tends to lead to, whether or not they realized it.

(And as I have repeatedly pointed out -- though people fanatically obsessed with “defeating Darwinism” seem never to want to get the point -- the deeply anti-Aristotelian character of the conception of the world as a kind of “machine,” and the many unhappy philosophical and theological consequences of this conception, are the reasons Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophers are often so critical of “Intelligent Design” theory.)  

Now, what happens when you keep the anti-Aristotelian component of this position but throw out the theological component is that you get a conception of nature on which both intrinsic and derived teleology disappear, leaving only as-if teleology, which is no teleology at all.  And by the same token, both intrinsic and derived goodness disappear as well, leaving only as-if goodness, which is not really goodness at all.  On this conception, since the Aristotelian-Scholastic conception of nature is seen as a medieval relic, there is no intrinsic teleology to a liana vine, and thus no objective reason to call this growth pattern good and that one bad.  But neither is there any derived teleology or goodness, since there is (on this view) no divine artificer of the Newtonian or Paleyan sort either, whose purposes might give content to teleological and evaluative descriptions of natural phenomena in the absence of inherent Aristotelian forms and final causes.  The most we can say is that the liana vine behaves as if it had teleology and as if this growth pattern were good and that one bad.  For on the view of nature in question, the material world ultimately has only the mathematically describable (and essentially non-teleological) properties described by physics.

This is why John Searle is right to say (as he does in the book cited above) that naturalists are deluding themselves if they think that Darwinism gives them a way to “naturalize” teleology.  As Searle argues, the point of explanations in terms of natural selection is precisely to eliminate teleology, to show that such-and-such biological phenomena do not really have functions but only seem to (which is exactly what such explanations do show if interpreted within the larger context of a naturalistic metaphysical framework).  It is also why Alex Rosenberg is right to say that if we accept scientism, then to be consistent we have to deny the existence of any teleology and value whatsoever.   That is not to say that this conception of nature is coherent; on the contrary, I think it is completely incoherent, as I have argued in The Last Superstition, in the posts on Alex Rosenberg just linked to, and in other places.  But it is the conception of nature to which many naturalists are either explicitly or implicitly committed.

This brings us back at last to Fincke.  Both in the post linked to above and in an earlier post, Fincke makes use of expressions like “teleology,” “form,” “function,” “flourishing,” and “intrinsic goodness,” and refers positively to Aristotle.  That makes him sound like an old fashioned Scholastic like me, or at least like a neo-Aristotelian of the Ellis or Cartwright sort.  Yet he also uses “function” in a way that seems to imply that complex natural objects are simply arrangements of smaller components which interact in a law-like way.  This indicates a kind of reductionism that no Aristotelian can accept.  From an Aristotelian point of view, neither complex natural phenomena like organisms nor even relatively simpler natural substances like water are in any way less real than or reducible to their parts.  On the contrary, the parts of an organism are intelligible only by reference to the whole of which they are a part. And even the oxygen and hydrogen in a certain volume of water are less real than the water itself in the sense that while the prime matter underlying that volume has the substantial form of water, the hydrogen and oxygen in it exist only “virtually” rather than “actually.”

There is nothing in any of this, rightly understood, that is in any way contrary to what we know from modern physics, chemistry, and biology, but it does require a very radical rethinking of the metaphysical assumptions most philosophers (and scientists too, in their philosophical moments) bring to bear, almost always uncritically, on their interpretation of science.  (David Oderberg’s Real Essentialism is the most thorough recent treatment of the relationship between Aristotelian metaphysics and modern science.)

My guess would be that Fincke has simply not thought through the details of Aristotelian metaphysics thoroughly enough to see how radically at odds it is with the metaphysical assumptions typically made by contemporary academic philosophers, and naturalists in particular.  But I have not read a lot of his writing, so it is possible that he knows exactly what he is doing and that his comments about Libresco reflect a much larger, and quite radical, rethinking of naturalism itself.  (I highly doubt it, but who knows.)

If the latter is the case, then the rethink has to be very radical indeed, and it would be quite silly in that event for Fincke glibly to pretend that his fellow atheists should have no qualms about hopping on board.  For not only must a consistent Aristotelian essentially chuck out most of what has passed for the general metaphysical conventional wisdom in mainstream philosophy during the last few centuries, but he must also take very seriously the natural theology that has traditionally been associated with Aristotelian metaphysics and philosophy of nature.  That is not dogmatically to insist that there can be no way to extricate the metaphysics and philosophy of nature from the natural theology (though I don’t for a moment think this can be done).  Perhaps Fincke could make a go of it.  The point is rather that (as I show in many places, like Aquinas) the general metaphysics and philosophy of nature on the one hand and the natural theology on the other are very deeply interrelated.   To develop a consistently Aristotelian conception of nature without committing oneself to an Aristotelian natural theology is a major project, not the work of a few blog posts.  

More likely, Fincke is essentially committed to the same naturalistic assumptions his fellow atheists are, and does not realize that the Aristotelian categories he likes cannot be so easily harmonized with those assumptions.  And if that is the case, he will certainly have failed to give either teleology or morality an objective foundation, for he will have established at most only as-if teleology and goodness rather than either intrinsic or derived teleology and goodness.  But as things stand his arguments seem too ambiguous between a traditional Aristotelian reading on the one hand, and a naturalistic reading on the other, to know for sure what the content of his position really is.

472 comments:

  1. dguller,

    I very much appreciate the discussion we are having, but I won't be able to respond till later this evening.

    Till then...

    ReplyDelete
  2. Dguller,

    All those distortions come from within ourselves, and thus we must be aware that we bring something to the interaction with reality from ourselves.

    And this is what I'd highlight you put more importance on than David T; he clearly recognizes the imprint of the ranking of goods on his mind (arrow coming inward), your objections draw attention to the mind's perspective on the ranking of goods (arrow going outward) being unknowable/unordered. That's what I mean by your broadly idealist position.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Josh:

    And this is what I'd highlight you put more importance on than David T; he clearly recognizes the imprint of the ranking of goods on his mind (arrow coming inward), your objections draw attention to the mind's perspective on the ranking of goods (arrow going outward) being unknowable/unordered. That's what I mean by your broadly idealist position.

    Well, I conceive of our understanding and perception of the world as an interaction between the world and ourselves, and thus fundamentally dyadic in nature. If that makes me an idealist, then so be it, but it should not be confused with the typical definition of “idealist”, which is “reality is fundamentally dependent upon the mind”. I would say that our interaction with reality is partly dependent upon our mind (as our vehicle of interaction) and partly dependent upon reality.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Dguller,

    If that makes me an idealist, then so be it, but it should not be confused with the typical definition of “idealist”, which is “reality is fundamentally dependent upon the mind”.

    Which is why I apply the qualification "broadly idealist," in that, in this dyadic relationship applied to the objective order in Nature, your objections indicate a greater emphasis on the mind and its products, while David T's is on that which is without imposing upon the mind. Hence your emphasis on "perspectives" of ends.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Josh:

    Which is why I apply the qualification "broadly idealist," in that, in this dyadic relationship applied to the objective order in Nature, your objections indicate a greater emphasis on the mind and its products, while David T's is on that which is without imposing upon the mind. Hence your emphasis on "perspectives" of ends.

    I think the bigger difference is that David T seems to deny any possible distorting influence of the mind when perceiving the objective world. After all, he is able to see the world purely as it is, and intuitively understands its properties. But you are correct that I put “a greater emphasis on the mind and its products”, because David T seems to put no emphasis upon the mind, and thus any attention that I draw to the mind will be more than none, and thus be “greater”. 

    ReplyDelete
  6. Dguller,

    Finally, how one interprets nature depends upon a predetermined conceptual framework that necessarily includes rules of interpretation. For example, if you observe a new species of beetle, then you do not interpret it as popping into existence the moment you saw it, but rather assume, based upon your framework, that it had a lifespan like other biological organisms. In other words, you do not just see nature as it is without any distortion or bias. You see it through a lens, which can either sharpen the image, or distort it.

    This is an idealist predisposition, in that the condition of assuming that things don't arise uncaused is not a fact about the world, but rather, dependent upon a model. Antithetical to realism.

    David T, on the other hand: Well, I think nature gives us the answer with the fact that the good of pleasure cannot be fulfilled unless the good of existence is already being fulfilled

    Nature gives us. And it's not that we can't make false inferences, which is really where distortions come from, but that there are things which are certain which has nothing to do with our minds except whether we choose to acknowledge them or not. In this case, you don't have pleasure as a priority in a being unless existence is a higher one.

    I'm sure David T would acknowledge we can make mistakes in our reasoning; he's merely pointing out the intuitively obvious. You of course don't recognize it as obvious, because you have a prior idealistic commitment, as in the quote above.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Dguller,

    In other words, you do not just see nature as it is without any distortion or bias. You see it through a lens, which can either sharpen the image, or distort it.

    I might also ask how knowledge is possible at all if "distortion or bias" is assumed from the outset?

    ReplyDelete
  8. Ben

    Sorry I didn't see your link request till now - was pulled into a meeting.

    I see dguller put up the link in the meanwhile; thanks dguller.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Josh, dguller

    dguller: In other words, you do not just see nature as it is without any distortion or bias. You see it through a lens, which can either sharpen the image, or distort it.

    Josh: I might also ask how knowledge is possible at all if "distortion or bias" is assumed from the outset?


    This is also, according to Gilson, a way of recognising the false sciences generated by idealism; they are compelled to define truth as a special case of error.

    ReplyDelete
  10. And of course you are once more simply restating your position without any kind of support.

    Nothing will come of this conversation, that much is clear.


    Abandon logic in favor of insanity if that's your thing. I really couldn't care less.

    Pleasure is an experience of conscious minds, and since not all animals have consciousness, those that do not obviously cannot live for pleasure. If you focus upon conscious (e.g. humans) or proto-conscious organisms (e.g. higher mammals), then you see them as guided towards activities that encourage their well-being, and when they engage in such activities, they experience pleasure. It does not matter if non-conscious organisms do not engage in this behavior. I can simply argue that they are unimportant in the grand scheme of things,

    Nope. Non-conscious organisms like plants are just as important to the Aristotelian picture of reality as animals (a category that includes bacteria, FYI). Excluding them to make your point is arbitrary and absolutely uncalled for.

    It is similar to the Thomist argument that even though most human beings fail to exercise their rational capacities properly, it is still essential to their nature to be rational animals. In other words, experience is not the final arbiter of the essential.

    It's nothing like that argument, though. One deals with vast swaths of organisms--the other is about a failure to fulfill telos among a portion of a single species. Your "pleasure theory" cannot apply to the majority of lifeforms, as you said; and, even if it did, it would still be ridiculous for reasons I outlined above. The Aristotelian stance that life continues life is supported by science and logic, and it applies to every type of living entity. You're going to have to concede this one.

    Again, this presupposes that you already know the final causes of a tree or a gazelle.

    "Flourishing" has no competition. Your alternative theory, I'm sure you can see, is absurd.

    ReplyDelete
  11. I mentioned above that you would have to decide whether the final cause occurs within the immediate future, medium future, long-range future, or even within the lifespan of the entity in question. For example, it might be the final cause to raise productive and functional offspring, which may happen after the parent dies.

    The primary final cause is always flourishing. This might include having offspring, yes; but it never hinges solely on that aspect.

    So, do you value immediate actions more than medium range ones? Do you value long-term actions more than immediate actions? Do you value actions that affect the being in question more than actions that affect others? These are all value judgments that require justification.

    The flourishing of the organism at a particular time is the only way to judge. It could break a leg and be eaten tomorrow. How are we supposed to project into the future?

    Why does a living organism have to be the paradigm for teleology?

    Because knowledge starts from experience, and not from arbitrary theorizing.

    That is an assumption that gets the metaphysical system going, but if you started somewhere else, such as with the actions of DNA, or the actions of molecules, then you would get a different metaphysical system with a different conception of what counts as immanent teleology.

    Who says that it gets the system going? A-T categorizes things. Certain things are alive; others aren't. Whether you prefer one or the other is absolutely irrelevant. All of them would have to be classified in the end, and robots still wouldn't be in the same category as living things. Even if you called what they have "immanent teleology" and what living things have "derived teleology", it would make no difference.

    And even cells did not always exist. There was once a time where there were only atoms and molecules engaging in chemical reactions. Ultimately, those atoms and molecules formed self-contained structures with properties that were able to sustain their existence, including the inclusion of organelles that performed different functions.

    This is sheer speculation that people like Oderberg argue against. I, for one, do not accept it. There is no scientific evidence for it, and, metaphysically, it seems impossible. You're going to have to make a case.

    ReplyDelete
  12. If you take that as the paradigm of immanent teleology, then you have a different metaphysics.

    In name only, as I said.

    And here is another issue that I have with identifying final causes. How does one determine a property that is essential from a property that is accidental?

    Oderberg talks about it in Real Essentialism, but I don't remember his argument. Going to have to defer on this one.

    It is not done through statistical analysis, because it is supposed to be a metaphysical distinction. However, it is supposed to be based upon experience.

    Knowledge begins with experience. Aristotle believed that humans take forms from substances into their immaterial intellects, where they are stored.

    Furthermore, it is always possible that all collected examples are defective, and thus not exemplars of the correct essence at all.

    If they flourish, then they're "correct". If some similar kind of entity exists that flourishes under different conditions, then it may be classified as a different species with a different essence.

    I mean, if human beings evolved to have a brain change that compromised their ability to engage in rational thought, then would they still be considered rational animals, albeit defective ones?

    If there was a speciation event that caused this to happen, then I don't think so. "Rational" has a very defined meaning.

    And if not, then how are they different from ordinary human beings with severe brain damage, which are still considered to be rational animals, albeit defective ones?

    People with severe brain damage have the same substantial form as those who do not, from the moment of conception. Whether or not they realize all of the powers inherent in this form is irrelevant. A separate species of "stupid humans" would possess a different form, and would therefore be a different case entirely.

    Likeness presupposes identity in some respect. X is like Y iff X and Y share some properties that are identical. There would have to be something being a human intellect and a Divine Intellect that is the same, or you do not have an analogy at all.

    Says who? Nothing in the Divine Intellect is the same as that in a human intellect. As far as I know, there is no univocity at all between humans and God in A-T.

    ReplyDelete
  13. No, in rank sophist's world, the world in which we all live, novelty, invention, and creativity come from something, not nothing.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Josh:

    This is an idealist predisposition, in that the condition of assuming that things don't arise uncaused is not a fact about the world, but rather, dependent upon a model. Antithetical to realism.

    It is dependent upon the dyadic relationship between our thoughts about the world and the world. Our thoughts are correct if they accurately represent or refer to how the world objectively operates. I don’t think that this is a controversial point, unless one wants to deny that our thoughts about the world are different from the world.

    Nature gives us. And it's not that we can't make false inferences, which is really where distortions come from, but that there are things which are certain which has nothing to do with our minds except whether we choose to acknowledge them or not. In this case, you don't have pleasure as a priority in a being unless existence is a higher one.

    So, distortions cannot come from faulty empirical data? I mean, a false inference can be based upon either false premises or defective reasoning from premises. You seem to imply that all empirical and sensory information about the world that comes to us is correct and true, but that we sometimes make defective inferences from that information, and that is what accounts for our distorted perceptions, memories, and so on. How can you demonstrate this important fact?

    And nature does give us, but we have to be capable of receiving what nature gives. That requires approaching nature in the correct fashion so as to minimize potential biases and distortions. After all, there are a number of different belief systems in the world and throughout human history. They cannot all be correct, which means that many of them must have misinterpreted what nature was giving us. If this is not the case, then how can you explain the diverse belief systems rather than the presence of a single, unified and coherent belief system that all human beings assent to?

    I might also ask how knowledge is possible at all if "distortion or bias" is assumed from the outset?

    I never said that all information is distorted or biased. I only said that it can happen, and that we must be aware of how it can happen to be on guard against it. I am not making the faulty inference from some information is erroneous to the conclusion that all information is erroneous. That is why knowledge is possible.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Dguller,

    So, distortions cannot come from faulty empirical data?

    Of course you can have objective impediments like color blindness or what have you...

    And diversity in belief is entirely understandable; false inference and false judgments from the same simple apprehensions of the mind.

    And on that point, David T merely calls attention to the fact of order in the world as an intuitively obvious judgment, in relation to the primacy of existence over pleasure. You'd have to point out how that's a false judgment, as opposed to merely pointing out that there are many possible hierarchies of ends to choose from.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Josh:

    And on that point, David T merely calls attention to the fact of order in the world as an intuitively obvious judgment, in relation to the primacy of existence over pleasure. You'd have to point out how that's a false judgment, as opposed to merely pointing out that there are many possible hierarchies of ends to choose from.

    How does the fact of order in the world serve to justify the primary of existence over pleasure?

    ReplyDelete
  17. Rank:

    Nope. Non-conscious organisms like plants are just as important to the Aristotelian picture of reality as animals (a category that includes bacteria, FYI). Excluding them to make your point is arbitrary and absolutely uncalled for.

    But does every existing being have to have the same final causes? Is it possible that one class of beings has final cause F1 and another class of beings have final cause F2? And if that is the case, then why can’t one class of beings (i.e. conscious or proto-conscious beings) have a final cause of achieving pleasurable experiences? After all, it does not have to be the final cause of non-conscious beings, much like the rational soul has a final cause that is different from the final cause of an appetitive or vegetative soul.

    It's nothing like that argument, though. One deals with vast swaths of organisms--the other is about a failure to fulfill telos among a portion of a single species. Your "pleasure theory" cannot apply to the majority of lifeforms, as you said; and, even if it did, it would still be ridiculous for reasons I outlined above. The Aristotelian stance that life continues life is supported by science and logic, and it applies to every type of living entity. You're going to have to concede this one.

    How does it apply to the final cause of living beings with rational souls? Is their final cause simply to persist in existence, or is it something else, such as the acquisition of true understanding as a means of ultimately drawing closer to God who is the source of all knowledge? And if rational souls can have a final cause that differs from appetitive and vegetative souls, which means that a subset of existing beings has a final cause that the majority simply does not, then why can’t pleasure also be one of the final causes of the set of conscious beings? It seems to me to be the same argument, but I may be missing something.

    "Flourishing" has no competition. Your alternative theory, I'm sure you can see, is absurd.

    The best definition of “flourishing” that an Aristotelian can come up with is the X is flourishing (and is good) to the degree that X actualizes its nature towards its final cause. Thus, flourishing depends upon the knowledge of the final causes of existing beings. After all, what makes a bacteria flourish is not what makes a human being flourish. I agree with this basic framework, but disagree that one can determine final cause(s) very easily, particularly with complex entities that have a broad range of possible activities and behaviors.

    The primary final cause is always flourishing. This might include having offspring, yes; but it never hinges solely on that aspect.

    Then what does it hinge upon? How does one decide from amongst the wide range of possible and actual behaviors of existing beings that range across space-time, both local and distant (in both space and time), which behaviors count as essential (i.e. final causes), and which count as accidental? You keep just saying that it is “good” and it results in “flourishing”, neither of which has been properly operationalized by a reliable methodology.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Rank:

    The flourishing of the organism at a particular time is the only way to judge. It could break a leg and be eaten tomorrow. How are we supposed to project into the future?

    The final cause of the acorn is to become an oak, not to lay on the floor for the next five minutes. It makes no sense to ignore this long-term outcome, because it might be thrown in the garbage by a human being tomorrow. Final causes can be in the immediate future, the medium future, the long-term future, and they can involve the lifespan of the being in question, or even beyond its life, and so on. There needs to be some precision and justification for how one decides which conditions apply when determining the final cause of a being. Short-term outcomes would be a good start, but then you would contradict Aristotle and Aquinas, such as with the acorn-oak example, and would then have to define “short-term”. The next 5 minutes? 20 minutes? Hour? Day? Or what?

    Because knowledge starts from experience, and not from arbitrary theorizing.

    How does experience demand that living beings be the paradigms for teleology? All beings exhibit teleology. Why should the type of teleology of living beings be treated as fundamental or primary?

    Who says that it gets the system going? A-T categorizes things. Certain things are alive; others aren't. Whether you prefer one or the other is absolutely irrelevant. All of them would have to be classified in the end, and robots still wouldn't be in the same category as living things. Even if you called what they have "immanent teleology" and what living things have "derived teleology", it would make no difference.

    I disagree. If you start with DNA as the fundamental ontological unit, say, then the paradigmatic form of teleology, or “immanent teleology”, would be comfortable with the idea that replication requires extra machinery not contained within DNA itself. Under this conception, an automated factory that replicates machines would be considered a similar fundamental ontological unit, even if it was initially created by human beings who then went extinct billions of years previously.

    This is sheer speculation that people like Oderberg argue against. I, for one, do not accept it. There is no scientific evidence for it, and, metaphysically, it seems impossible. You're going to have to make a case.

    Are you saying that there was always cellular life on this planet from the moment of its creation 4.5 billion years ago? Was there ever a time in the history of the universe where cells did not exist? I must say that I never saw this one coming!

    Oderberg talks about it in Real Essentialism, but I don't remember his argument. Going to have to defer on this one.

    My copy just arrived in the mail today. It’s on my reading list. Maybe it will explain this issue as well as you claim.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Rank:

    Knowledge begins with experience. Aristotle believed that humans take forms from substances into their immaterial intellects, where they are stored.

    I have a few questions about this account of the acquisition of knowledge. Say a human being interacts with a material being with form F instantiated in that particular bit of matter. What happens next? How does F go from the material being and into the immaterial intellect? And if F is always successfully transferred to the intellect, then how are mistakes about the essential nature of things even possible?

    If they flourish, then they're "correct". If some similar kind of entity exists that flourishes under different conditions, then it may be classified as a different species with a different essence.

    So, if a group of defective human beings, according to current conceptions of human nature, relocate to a new location, and begin to flourish despite those defects, then they count as a new species? But they are exactly the same human beings with the same nature. Only the environment has changed. Does that mean that essential properties are contextual and not intrinsic to the beings themselves?

    People with severe brain damage have the same substantial form as those who do not, from the moment of conception. Whether or not they realize all of the powers inherent in this form is irrelevant. A separate species of "stupid humans" would possess a different form, and would therefore be a different case entirely.

    Again, only the context has changed. I thought essence flowed from the nature of existing beings, and thus was located intrinsically to beings themselves. Your account would imply that they are dependent upon their environmental circumstances. I’m not too sure how that would square with A-T metaphysics.

    Says who? Nothing in the Divine Intellect is the same as that in a human intellect. As far as I know, there is no univocity at all between humans and God in A-T.

    Be my guest and explain how one can have X be similar to Y without X and Y sharing at least some identical properties.

    ReplyDelete
  20. dguller,

    I'm going to step back and address only one point here, because I think it is central to our differences:

    You must have an agreed-upon methodology from the onset, because that decreases the chances of motivated reasoning and wishful thinking. It decreases the chances that you simply look for reasons to justify preconceived ideas

    I have a great deal of sympathy for your viewpoint, and subscribed to something similar to it years ago. And I quite agree that our thinking is subject to bias and wishful thinking, among many other things that can divert us from the truth. But I no longer think an appeal to method as the primary thing in thought works. In fact, I think all it does is bake certain prejudices into the cake of our thought, which are then all the harder to unmask because we have convinced ourselves that method has protected us from them.

    There is a world of philosophy in your statement that You must have an agreed-upon methodology from the onset. What is the basis for this agreement? Is it something known through a yet more primitive method? Then we are in an infinite regress, and we must at some point come to a method that is not itself based on method, but is established non-methodically. Or it could be (as Kant saw) truths of "pure reason" that are free of empirical content. If I weren't an Aristotelian, I'd very likely be a Kantian, and I still love rereading the Critique of Pure Reason just to experience the fearlessness and depth with which Kant explores this line of thought.

    Anyway, I suspect you are not a Kantian, which leaves one other option: The agreement on method must be based on non-methodically known truths about the world. And I think when you refer to "wishful thinking" and "motivated reasoning" I think you take these to be facts about the world which justify your recourse to method, facts which must be known independently of method to serve that purpose, otherwise your justification of method is circular. We pick the methods that minimize wishful thinking and motivated reasoning.

    But if my views on eating and pleasure are to be dismissed because they are not the products of method, how is it you are able to help yourself to natural facts about wishful thinking in your justification of method? Are they not open to a similar dismissal? After all, the fact that we must eat to live before we can eat for pleasure seems a pretty straightforward fact about nature, while "wishful thinking" seems to me to be both vague and suspiciously loaded, almost designed to eliminate uncongenial modes of thought. Is it not possible that the hope that wishful thinking can be conquered through method itself is a form of wishful thinking?

    There are a lot of other unacknowledged prejudices baked into the empiricist cake that I won't go into here. The point is that the appeal to method isn't really a way to avoid recourse to non-methodically known truth; it just sweeps those facts under the rug of method and pretends they aren't there. Which is why the Enlightenment, which was born in the belief that it would put an end to the eternal squabbling of philosophers, only splintered the squabbling in many more directions, as each philosopher swept a different set of facts under his methodical rug and proclaimed that he had finally found the sure road to truth. (Yes, I am borrowing the rug metaphor from Feser). continue...

    ReplyDelete
  21. continue...
    The ancient answer to the problem of bias and wishful thinking is dialectic, i.e. philosophical conversation, which is why Plato wrote in dialogs rather than monologs. It is honest dialog that is the surest cure to bias and wishful thinking, not method (although method can be of help in certain areas - but it has no absolute justification independent of dialectic.) My policy is to straightforwardly expose the fundamental facts about the world I take as the basis of thought, e.g. "people must eat for survival before they can eat for pleasure." Now it is possible that it isn't really so and is only a product of my bias; I am open to someone showing me how that is so, but I have not yet seen a successful demonstration that it is.

    ReplyDelete
  22. But does every existing being have to have the same final causes? Is it possible that one class of beings has final cause F1 and another class of beings have final cause F2? And if that is the case, then why can’t one class of beings (i.e. conscious or proto-conscious beings) have a final cause of achieving pleasurable experiences? After all, it does not have to be the final cause of non-conscious beings, much like the rational soul has a final cause that is different from the final cause of an appetitive or vegetative soul.

    You've made a mistake here. The rational and sentient souls still possess the vegetative powers. The vegetative powers are inherent to all living things. They are the bare bones of life.

    Let me quote from Oderberg on the definition of life:

    "[L]ife is the natural capacity of an object for self-perfective immanent activity. Living things act for themselves in order to perfect themselves, where by perfection I mean that the entity acts so as to produce, conserve, and repair its proper functioning as the kind of thing it is - not to reach a state of absolute perfection, which is of course impossible for any finite being. Living things, unlike non-living things, exercise immanent causation: this is a kind of causation that begins with the agent and terminates in the agent for the sake of the agent. Transient causation, on the other hand, is the causation of one thing or event (or state, process, etc.) by another where the effect terminates in the former. All exercises of immanent causation involve transient causal results as and/or instruments."

    He continues from here, but you get the idea.

    Is their final cause simply to persist in existence, or is it something else, such as the acquisition of true understanding as a means of ultimately drawing closer to God who is the source of all knowledge? And if rational souls can have a final cause that differs from appetitive and vegetative souls, which means that a subset of existing beings has a final cause that the majority simply does not, then why can’t pleasure also be one of the final causes of the set of conscious beings? It seems to me to be the same argument, but I may be missing something.

    In order to perfect itself, a being must act "to produce, conserve, and repair its proper functioning as the kind of thing it is". If a tree ripped up its roots and began to walk around, it would die. In order to perfect itself qua tree, it must use its roots to obtain nutrients. Rational animals, no less than trees, must act toward the goal of self-perfection. However, as rational beings, their needs include such things as knowledge, virtue and living in accord with reason. This is, of course, in addition to the traits that are bundled with their animal natures.

    The best definition of “flourishing” that an Aristotelian can come up with is the X is flourishing (and is good) to the degree that X actualizes its nature towards its final cause.

    This is not true. The first thing to do is examine what causes something to flourish. In the case of a human, someone who lives a life of debauchery, for example, suffers from horrible, debilitating side-effects (whether physical, mental or spiritual). On the other hand, a life of virtue leads to flourishing unless some further event (such as a war or a sudden health condition) interrupts. Yet, this is the case with the gazelle no less than the human. A gazelle could be an excellent specimen and then get bitten by a snake.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Then what does it hinge upon? How does one decide from amongst the wide range of possible and actual behaviors of existing beings that range across space-time, both local and distant (in both space and time), which behaviors count as essential (i.e. final causes), and which count as accidental? You keep just saying that it is “good” and it results in “flourishing”, neither of which has been properly operationalized by a reliable methodology.

    I think I covered this above.

    The final cause of the acorn is to become an oak, not to lay on the floor for the next five minutes. It makes no sense to ignore this long-term outcome, because it might be thrown in the garbage by a human being tomorrow. Final causes can be in the immediate future, the medium future, the long-term future, and they can involve the lifespan of the being in question, or even beyond its life, and so on. There needs to be some precision and justification for how one decides which conditions apply when determining the final cause of a being. Short-term outcomes would be a good start, but then you would contradict Aristotle and Aquinas, such as with the acorn-oak example, and would then have to define “short-term”. The next 5 minutes? 20 minutes? Hour? Day? Or what?

    To the extent that an acorn is laying on the floor, it is not flourishing. Nothing it is doing there is self-perfective. To the extent that it is planted in the ground and beginning to grow, it is flourishing.

    How does experience demand that living beings be the paradigms for teleology? All beings exhibit teleology. Why should the type of teleology of living beings be treated as fundamental or primary?

    It isn't. It's merely a specific kind of teleology. In fact, given how little life there is in the universe, it would be fair to call it a very unique kind of teleology, and indeed a very rare kind of teleology.

    I disagree. If you start with DNA as the fundamental ontological unit, say, then the paradigmatic form of teleology, or “immanent teleology”, would be comfortable with the idea that replication requires extra machinery not contained within DNA itself.

    Immanent teleology has a meaning that I'm not sure you're understanding. It's explained in that Oderberg quote: self-perfective activity that begins within the entity for the sake of the entity.

    Under this conception, an automated factory that replicates machines would be considered a similar fundamental ontological unit, even if it was initially created by human beings who then went extinct billions of years previously.

    Certainly it could be called "a similar fundamental ontological unit". But it still wouldn't possess immanent teleology, and therefore it would not be alive. It's transient through-and-through.

    Are you saying that there was always cellular life on this planet from the moment of its creation 4.5 billion years ago? Was there ever a time in the history of the universe where cells did not exist? I must say that I never saw this one coming!

    I'm not saying anything about it at all--I'm merely arguing that life coming from non-life is logically and scientifically incoherent. I, like Oderberg, present no other opinion or theory about the matter.

    ReplyDelete
  24. I have a few questions about this account of the acquisition of knowledge. Say a human being interacts with a material being with form F instantiated in that particular bit of matter. What happens next? How does F go from the material being and into the immaterial intellect? And if F is always successfully transferred to the intellect, then how are mistakes about the essential nature of things even possible?

    You'll have to take this one up with an expert.

    So, if a group of defective human beings, according to current conceptions of human nature, relocate to a new location, and begin to flourish despite those defects, then they count as a new species? But they are exactly the same human beings with the same nature. Only the environment has changed. Does that mean that essential properties are contextual and not intrinsic to the beings themselves?

    If they had the same nature as a regular human, then, by definition, they could not flourish. As they have certain mental disabilities, they could not act in a self-perfective manner with regard to their natures qua rational animals. However, if they had a different nature that did not include rationality, then they could flourish perfectly well.

    Again, only the context has changed. I thought essence flowed from the nature of existing beings, and thus was located intrinsically to beings themselves. Your account would imply that they are dependent upon their environmental circumstances. I’m not too sure how that would square with A-T metaphysics.

    This is because you've mistaken what I meant by "flourishing".

    Be my guest and explain how one can have X be similar to Y without X and Y sharing at least some identical properties.

    I've never heard this definition of the word "analogy" before, and so I'm not sure why it's necessary for me to explain this.

    ReplyDelete
  25. To the extent that an acorn is laying on the floor

    Pardon me: "lying on the floor".

    ReplyDelete
  26. One more thing.

    How does experience demand that living beings be the paradigms for teleology? All beings exhibit teleology. Why should the type of teleology of living beings be treated as fundamental or primary?

    I think I misunderstood you in my previous posts regarding the primacy of "immanent teleology". I see what you're saying now. My last post--which agrees that immanent teleology is not necessarily the most fundamental kind--reflects this change in understanding. I apologize for the confusion.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Rank:

    You've made a mistake here. The rational and sentient souls still possess the vegetative powers. The vegetative powers are inherent to all living things. They are the bare bones of life.

    The issue is what counts as a final cause. The final cause of a human being fundamentally comes from their rational soul. A human being cannot flourish from an appetitive and vegetative standpoint, because their essence is rational. In other words, a human being who was brain damaged to the point of having compromised cognitive abilities, despite having fully intact appetitive and vegetative powers, would not be considered to be good or flourishing human being, by any means, except insofar as considered from the specific final causes of those powers. But remember, we are not allowed to decompose living organisms into smaller units that bootstrap higher emergent properties from themselves, because such organisms are supposed to be taken as holistic units, and the holistic unit of human nature has understanding as its final cause. Everything else makes this possible, but the foundation is not always the end, as I mentioned to someone else.

    Again, it does not matter if all living things share vegetative powers, for example. Those powers have their own teleology and final causes, but it does not follow that they are necessarily the final causes of the whole organism. They certainly are when it comes to plants, for example, but when it comes to animals and human beings, there are other final causes that come into play, and it makes perfect sense when talking about the final causes of animals to focus upon their appetitive powers as higher in the hierarchy of final causes, and when talking about the final causes of humans to focus upon their rational powers as higher in the hierarchy of final causes.

    Similarly, when thinking about other hierarchies, one can focus upon consciousness or pleasure, for example. After all, most living things do not have consciousness in the sense of a subjective experience of a self, much as most living things do not have reason in the sense of the ability to utilize abstractions and universals in logical analysis. It just is irrelevant to say that all living things strive to exist, because I am only talking about a subset of living things and their final causes. And just because all living things share the same foundation, it does not follow that they necessarily share the same ends.

    This is not true. The first thing to do is examine what causes something to flourish. In the case of a human, someone who lives a life of debauchery, for example, suffers from horrible, debilitating side-effects (whether physical, mental or spiritual). On the other hand, a life of virtue leads to flourishing unless some further event (such as a war or a sudden health condition) interrupts. Yet, this is the case with the gazelle no less than the human. A gazelle could be an excellent specimen and then get bitten by a snake.

    This is not true. The first thing is to explain what you mean by “flourishing”. Let me give you an example. Say, I am trying to understand the ability of something to Yoitz. Before we can examine what causes something to Yoitz, I need to explain what I mean by “Yoitz”. Until then, we don’t even know what we are looking for.

    When it comes to flourishing, the Aristotelian definition necessarily involves the actualization of final causes, whereby the more they are actualized, the more flourishing or good a thing is. It is therefore of paramount importance to be able to identify final causes to understand flourishing. So, you would have to explain why virtue is flourishing, but debauchery is not. After all, many people live virtuous lives, but suffer by virtue of living in corrupt societies, and many people engage in debauchery, and find a measure of sustained satisfaction from it. What is the norm, and what is the deviation, and how do you decide?

    ReplyDelete
  28. Rank:

    I think I covered this above.

    I don’t think that you did. You assumed that you had already determined final causes and their ranking, and then applied that framework to particular cases. The framework itself requires justification, and that would require having some kind of a method to decide how to decide from amongst the wide range of possible and actual behaviors of existing beings that range across space-time, both local and distant (in both space and time), which behaviors count as essential (i.e. final causes), and which count as accidental.


    To the extent that an acorn is laying on the floor, it is not flourishing. Nothing it is doing there is self-perfective. To the extent that it is planted in the ground and beginning to grow, it is flourishing.

    I see. So, to determine whether an organism is flourishing, one must look to the present time. I agree. My question was how to determine what flourishing is supposed to be defined as in terms of picking final causes to be actualized. Obviously, the more those final causes are actualized in the present, then more an organism can be considered to be flourishing, but the question is what your checklist is in the present moment to determine how much an organism is flourishing. In other words, to determine how good a triangle is, you need to look at how the triangle is on paper right now, because the paper may become wrinkled later, and the triangle will be less perfect. However, what counts as a perfect triangle must be established before looking at the current triangle in the present. Triangles are pretty easy, but living organisms are harder, because they are concrete particular beings that exist within space-time with multiple behavioral consequences rippling across space-time. The question is which of them counts as the final cause, and how do you determine this.

    It isn't. It's merely a specific kind of teleology. In fact, given how little life there is in the universe, it would be fair to call it a very unique kind of teleology, and indeed a very rare kind of teleology.

    I think that I probably have been misusing terms. Feser’s post talked about intrinsic, derived and as-if teleology. Intrinsic teleology is supposed to be what natural substances do, and derived teleology is supposed to be what artifacts of natural substances do. I’ll ignore as-if teleology, because it is just an accidental arrangement that seems to have teleology, but really doesn’t.

    I was confusing intrinsic teleology with immanent teleology. In other words, the intrinsic teleology of all naturally existing substances is a broader set than immanent teleology, which only occurs amongst living naturally existing substances. That is why a robot factory cannot have immanent teleology, which is only possible for living organisms. But can it have intrinsic teleology, especially if it evolves over time to become autonomous and independent of its creators?

    And what this question seems to hinge upon is what counts as natural. Part of the argument is that since artifacts cannot be considered natural, i.e. they do not occur in and of themselves in nature, then they cannot ever be thought of as having intrinsic teleology, which is the hallmark of natural beings, but only a derived variety. However, once one accepts that the natural world has evolved over time, then one sees a number of examples of novelty and innovation in which things that were unnatural, because never seen in nature, eventually became natural, because they were plentiful and part of the natural world.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Rank:

    For example, take the cell. There was a time on this planet when there were no cells at all. Since the cell is the basis of life, because all living things are composed of cells, it follows that there was no life, either. (I’ll ignore viruses, which don’t seem to fit anywhere.) The question is where did these cells come from? Well, they are composed of molecules arranged in a particular way to create a structure with specific functions. So, there was a progression over time from inanimate molecules and chemicals to an animate cell. Furthermore, since the function of a cell depends upon the activity of its chemical and molecular components, it seems that its teleology also depends upon its chemical and molecular components. Without them, it could not function or exist.

    The question is whether the cell’s teleology is derived from molecular teleology? In other words, what makes cellular teleology possible is the particular arrangement of molecules, according to their own teleology. And if the cell has derived teleology, because its teleology is secondary to the teleology of its molecular components and their chemical behavior, then animate teleology is dependent upon inanimate teleology.

    This is relevant, because if you look at things from this perspective, then you see that even what we consider to have intrinsic teleology (i.e. the cell, and the natural organisms that are composed of cells) actually has derived teleology from lower-level material entities, which have the real intrinsic teleology. And if whether something is intrinsic or derived depends upon one’s perspective, then perhaps there is a perspective in which a robot producing factory can be considered to have intrinsic teleology. After all, when taken as a holistic unit, it has intrinsic teleology, but when taken as part of a broader system, then it has derived teleology, much like when the cell is taken as an holistic unit, it has intrinsic teleology, but when taken as part of a broader system of molecular and chemical interactions, then it has derived teleology.

    Once again, perspective matters.

    Certainly it could be called "a similar fundamental ontological unit". But it still wouldn't possess immanent teleology, and therefore it would not be alive. It's transient through-and-through.

    Again, what counts as immanent teleology depends upon one’s starting point, which depends upon one’s perspective. Some things are immanent from one perspective, but derived from another. Ultimately, every contingent thing composed of matter and form and a combination of act and potency has its teleology derived from a Necessarily Existing Ground of All Being, or as I like call it, the NEGAB.

    As I mentioned, there are a number of different ways to describe objective reality, and where you start affects where you end. If you start with looking at the world from a quantifiable and mathematical perspective, then you end up with physics and scientism. If you start with looking at the world from a perspective in which the natural unit is macroscopic material entities, then you end up with something like Aristotelianism. If you start with looking at the world from a perspective that prioritizes atoms and molecules, then you end up with something like Democritus and Lucretius.

    I'm not saying anything about it at all--I'm merely arguing that life coming from non-life is logically and scientifically incoherent. I, like Oderberg, present no other opinion or theory about the matter.

    How is it incoherent that living organisms are composed of inanimate components that are arranged in such a fashion, according to a specific form that results in life?

    ReplyDelete
  30. Rank:

    If they had the same nature as a regular human, then, by definition, they could not flourish. As they have certain mental disabilities, they could not act in a self-perfective manner with regard to their natures qua rational animals. However, if they had a different nature that did not include rationality, then they could flourish perfectly well.

    The issue is when the nature changes. You start with a group of human beings, some with better rational functions than others. You could say that human nature is to be rational, and that the ones with better rational faculties are more perfect than those with inferior rational faculties. Say over time there is a divergence in these two groups such that those who are rational function less effectively in the world than those who are less rational, possibly because of a change in the environment, like those who were too smart created technology that blew themselves up maybe. Now, prior to the rational humans self-destruction, all these humans had the same natures, right? But then after they self-destructed, suddenly the natures changed in the less rational humans. How does that happen? What exactly changed in them? They were exactly the same before and after the self-destruction of the rational humans, and so how could their natures change in their stayed the same? It seems that what counts as the nature of a thing is contextual and dependent upon the environment in which it resides. It is not intrinsic at all.

    I've never heard this definition of the word "analogy" before, and so I'm not sure why it's necessary for me to explain this

    Because you said that God did not have a Mind, but had something like a mind. When you used “like” you signed assent to the doctrine of analogy, which was the reason for my question. For me, similarity implies partial identity, because without partial identity, you either have total identity (which would mean that X = Y, which is not likeness or similarity, but identity) or total difference (which would mean that X is nothing like Y, and thus cannot be like or similar to Y). But Aquinas denies partial identity, because that would imply univocal meaning at some level of analysis, which he denies when it comes to an analogy between creatures and God. That’s the problem, at least as I see it.

    ReplyDelete
  31. David T:

    The ancient answer to the problem of bias and wishful thinking is dialectic, i.e. philosophical conversation, which is why Plato wrote in dialogs rather than monologs. It is honest dialog that is the surest cure to bias and wishful thinking, not method (although method can be of help in certain areas - but it has no absolute justification independent of dialectic.) My policy is to straightforwardly expose the fundamental facts about the world I take as the basis of thought, e.g. "people must eat for survival before they can eat for pleasure." Now it is possible that it isn't really so and is only a product of my bias; I am open to someone showing me how that is so, but I have not yet seen a successful demonstration that it is.

    It seems that you do, in fact, have a method, which is individual human beings in rational discussion, attempting to uncover the truth, and which you call dialectic.

    There are a few problems with this method.

    First, if the people involved in the dialectic share the same biases and distortions, then they will be oblivious to them. That is how cult members maintain their shared identity, i.e. by repeating only “established” truths incessantly to the point that alternatives are drowned out. So, one would have to be able to converse with particular individuals who already have access to the truth, rather than individuals who follow falsehood. How does one identity which is which by this method?

    Second, if these individuals end up agreeing upon certain points, why does that mean that they have found the truth? Take any group of people in history, and they will have agreed upon the truth of something that turned out to be false. That can be about mundane or profound matters. So, it is not necessarily true that agreement amongst individuals in a dialectic will result in the truth.

    Third, it makes no mention of the fact people have psychological quirks that ultimately distort their knowledge. How does this method tease these out without actually testing the world to see if beliefs are true? What I mean is that there has to be a point where someone has checked to see if the world aligns with their beliefs, and that they needed to have a method whereby they accomplished this. Otherwise, it is just subjective beliefs that are unmoored from reality. So, the focus should not be on the conversation, but upon the evidence, which can be accumulated into a body of knowledge, independent of particular individuals’ agreement.

    In other words, I think that your method actually would exacerbate biases, because it makes subjective agreement the criterion and method of truth, when this has historically been fraught with multiple problems. As mentioned, people have psychological incentives to believe certain things, and often lie to themselves to accomplish subconscious goals independent of finding the truth of the matter. And just because you are not convinced by another’s arguments does not mean that you have the truth. It may be that your cognitive biases have distorted your understanding such that you simply refuse to allow yourself to recognize the truth.

    At some point, interrogating the world must enter into the equation, and I would say that would be the primary and fundamental part of discovering the truth. Sitting around and discussing what your intuitions and prejudices support with another person will be useful for what Dennett calls auto-anthropology, i.e. understanding how and what people think, but it would not necessarily be helpful to understand reality. Obviously, there is often a disconnect between what people think and what occurs in reality.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Rank:

    And here’s another problem with using analogy to understand God.

    (1) X is identical to Y iff the properties of X are identical to the properties of Y.
    (2) X is different from Y iff the properties of X are different from the properties of Y.
    (3) X is like Y iff (a) X is partly identical to Y, and (b) X is partly different from Y.
    (4) If X is like Y, then Y is like X (by substitution of X and Y in (3)).
    (5) Man is like God.
    (6) If man is like God, then God is like man (by (4)).
    (7) God is like man (by (5), (6)).
    (8) If God is like man, then God is partly identical to man, and partly different from man (by (3)).
    (9) If X is simple, then X has no parts
    (10) God is simple
    (11) Therefore, God has no parts (by (7), (8))
    (12) God is partly identical to man and partly different from man (by (7), (8)).
    (13) God both has parts (by (12)) and has no parts (by 11))
    (14) Therefore, there is a contradiction.

    In other words, analogy presupposes parts, which do not exist in God. Thus, analogy cannot be applied to God if he is simple.

    ReplyDelete
  33. At some point, interrogating the world must enter into the equation

    Dialectic at its worst is an echo chamber. At its best, as in Plato's dialogues, it's mutual discovery, which is two people comparing what they both judge about the world. Ironically, it is the method you are practicing here in this combox, so it can't be that bad. David T clearly asked for a demonstration, indicating he subjects dialectic not the whims of the participants, but the laws of thought external to both.

    ReplyDelete
  34. Josh:

    Dialectic at its worst is an echo chamber. At its best, as in Plato's dialogues, it's mutual discovery, which is two people comparing what they both judge about the world.

    Have you read Plato’s dialogues? They might as well be monologues, because the majority of non-Socratic statements are essentially affirmations of what Socrates is saying. For example, “That is correct.” “You are right.” “That makes sense.” And so on. That is a one-sided demonstration with straw men as interlocutors.

    Ironically, it is the method you are practicing here in this combox, so it can't be that bad. David T clearly asked for a demonstration, indicating he subjects dialectic not the whims of the participants, but the laws of thought external to both.

    I never said that it was bad, but only that without some anchoring in the real world, it can be a false route to truth. Dialectic PLUS engagement and interrogation of the world is a winning formula, I think. Regardless, that would amount to a methodology for the discovery of truth, no?

    ReplyDelete
  35. dguller,

    Perhaps you missed my point, which is that in your insistence on method, you are not following your own advice.

    Your last post, for instance, is an exercise in dialectic, not method. That's my point. If method is to be defended, it must be defended dialectically, not methodically, because method is not self-justifying. If method is primary, then just show me the method that proves that method must be the primary thing in thought (and does not beg the question).

    I have not said that method is not useful or valuable. It certainly is. (If I didn't think so, I wouldn't be an engineer.) What I dispute is your contention that method is the primary thing. I maintain it can't be, because both to defend and establish method, certain facts must be assumed into evidence as a basis of argument. And the only way to deal with those is dialectically, since by hypothesis, method hasn't been established yet.

    For example, you have expanded your evidential basis in support of method beyond the natural fact of wishful thinking, to include psychological quirks, cults, subconscious goals, and social effects like groupthink. But your views on these things are just as subject to cognitive pathology as my views on the relationships between eating, sustenance and pleasure. Why is it my views on eating must be subject to dismissal for lack of method, but your views on psychological quirks get a pass?

    If method is to be primary in our thought, then method must be established prior to the assumption of any facts about the world, since we can't trust any facts until they have passed muster through method. This is what Kant attempted to do in his Critique of Pure Reason. Again, I ask, are you a Kantian? If not, what is your justification for assuming empirical facts into evidence in your case for the primacy of method?

    Daniel Dennett is a fascinating case and a good example of what I am talking about. Consciousness Explained is an interesting read, mostly because it is a case study in begging the question. Dennett spends the book developing a method ("Heterophenomenology"), which he defends in light of a whole set of facts about the word he takes for granted. Then, once he's got his method in hand, he says you can't believe anything in your consciousness unless it has first been vetted by heterophenomenology. Of course this undermines all the facts he blithely took for granted in developing the method in the first place. He sweeps them under the rug of this method and hopes you don't notice. Well, I notice.

    ReplyDelete
  36. They might as well be monologues, because the majority of non-Socratic statements are essentially affirmations of what Socrates is saying.

    What else can you do when you're arguing with a genius?

    I never said that it was bad, but only that without some anchoring in the real world, it can be a false route to truth.

    Hence David asking for demonstrations and my reference to the laws of thought external to participants.

    ReplyDelete
  37. "Decomposition has to end somewhere, or you have an infinite regress, so any "thoroughly mechanistic" model has to bottom out and hit brute dynamics at some point. Quantum fluctuations represent that "mechanistic floor"."


    That was well put.

    ReplyDelete
  38. In other words, analogy presupposes parts, which do not exist in God. Thus, analogy cannot be applied to God if he is simple.

    Being is an simple idea, not composed of parts. It's essentially analogical too:

    "God is of Himself; the grain of dust is, not of itself but in itself; such of its qualities is, not of itself, nor in itself, but in it."

    -Garrigou-Lagrange

    ReplyDelete
  39. Geez, I suppose if I am going to publicly remark on what struck me as a particularly well-phrased commonsensical observation, I should credit the source, as well as quote.

    It was, "Blogger Touchstone said..."

    ReplyDelete
  40. dguller,

    In one response to David T., you write: In other words, I think that your method ["the ancient answer" of "dialectic, i.e., philosophical discussion"--July 10, 2012 7:05 PM] actually would exacerbate biases, because it makes subjective agreement the criterion and method of truth, when this has historically been fraught with multiple problems.

    I have one comment to make, and one question to ask.

    Comment: The opening statement of your first comment on the prior page is, "I have been convinced by Feser regarding the truth of teleology in nature[.]" (July 9, 2012 8:24 AM). And, following on the heels of this announcement of your having been convinced via (apparently) philosophical argument, you have been seemingly engaging in "dialectic, i.e., philosophical discussion" ever since. I, as a reader, have not any problem with this--I have enjoyed reading your comments, considering the points made or raised therein, and the replies of others to these comments. However, and still as a reader, I cannot help but find it curious that you would engage in the very method you assert actually "exacerbates biases", and am left wondering if perhaps you may have biases you wish to be strengthened by this engagement.

    Question: You back up your assertion, that the mentioned method would actually exacerbate biases, by stating that this method makes "subjective agreement the criterion and method of truth." Having been convinced by Feser's argument / argumentation, and having been an active participant in the philosophical discussion initiated by yourself, do you still think (or have you ever really thought) that this type of discussion necessarily is: a) unproductive; b) incapable of accomplishing anything more than, say, confirming, sharpening and/or solidifying "biases"; and, c) based solely on making subjective agreement the sole criterion and method of truth?

    ReplyDelete
  41. David:

    Your last post, for instance, is an exercise in dialectic, not method. That's my point. If method is to be defended, it must be defended dialectically, not methodically, because method is not self-justifying. If method is primary, then just show me the method that proves that method must be the primary thing in thought (and does not beg the question).

    I think that we are getting way off topic here. I am not asking for a global methodology to determine the structure of reality, which is self-justifying and necessarily correct. I was specifically asking for your methodology to determine which states, processes and activities that an existing being is capable of count as a final cause. That’s all. There must be some rules for this activity, even inchoate, that guide your reasoning process. It can’t just be, “Well, I think hard about it, I look around me, and I talk to someone about it.” There must be some standards that count as a right conclusion, and some way to know when one is right and when one is wrong. So, either these standards already exist and you are trying to discover them, or you are making them up as you go along. If the former, then what are they, and if the latter, then how do you know when you are tracking the truth or not?

    Consciousness Explained is an interesting read, mostly because it is a case study in begging the question. Dennett spends the book developing a method ("Heterophenomenology"), which he defends in light of a whole set of facts about the word he takes for granted. Then, once he's got his method in hand, he says you can't believe anything in your consciousness unless it has first been vetted by heterophenomenology. Of course this undermines all the facts he blithely took for granted in developing the method in the first place. He sweeps them under the rug of this method and hopes you don't notice. Well, I notice.

    That’s not how I read it at all. He assumes that science is an essential part of understanding human consciousness, and the problem is that science deals with objective facts, and struggles with subjective states, being outside of its purview. The solution, as Dennett see it, is to collect as many objective facts about human consciousness, including verbal reports, behavioral responses, neuroscientific processes, neurochemical process, and so on, and combine them with what seems to be occurring in the subjective point of view to get a total account of consciousness. The interesting point is that the subject does not have a privileged understanding of their consciousness, but only access to what seems to be the case, which is a small part of what is the case, and is often oblivious towards the objective underpinning of itself.

    Furthermore, he sustains an attack upon one particular theory of this seeming, which is associated with the philosophical account of qualia. He argues that it is composed of qualities that are essentially inconsistent, and thus the concept of qualia is incoherent, which means that it should be excluded from an account of consciousness. There is still the seeming, but the philosophical theory of qualia is rejected. It is like refuting Plato’s doctrine of universals, but retaining Aristotle’s. Just because the philosophical account is false does not mean that the phenomenon that it is trying to describe does not exist. Just because we no longer believe that Cupid causes love does not mean that love does not exist.

    That is why he denies that he explained away consciousness, but only a particularly compelling philosophical account of consciousness, particularly the Cartesian Theater and the associated doctrine of qualia. He believes that his account of consciousness, as informed by heterophenomenology, is probably the best that we can do to understand consciousness.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Josh:

    Being is an simple idea, not composed of parts.

    But if Being can be divided into actual and potential being, the paradoxical being of matter (which both exists to assume form, but does not exist until it assumes form), and the being of substances and qualities, then Being is actually more complex than you make it seem, and complexity implies composition, not simplicity. How can something simple have such complex manifestations?

    It's essentially analogical too: "God is of Himself; the grain of dust is, not of itself but in itself; such of its qualities is, not of itself, nor in itself, but in it."-Garrigou-Lagrange

    So, God is self-caused substance, the grain of dust is not self-caused (because it depends puon God for its existence), but is a substance, and its qualities are neither self-caused nor substance (because they depend upon substance for their existence). These different forms of Being all share the quality of being something rather than nothing, but they are all different kinds of something. I would say that non-Being is simple (if it could have qualities), but Being certainly seem complex.

    ReplyDelete
  43. @dguller:

    Apologies for barging in, but:

    "But if Being can be divided into actual and potential being, the paradoxical being of matter (which both exists to assume form, but does not exist until it assumes form), and the being of substances and qualities, then Being is actually more complex than you make it seem, and complexity implies composition, not simplicity."

    Parmenides was right in that there is a rigid dichotomy between being and non-being; he was wrong insofar as there is more more than one mode of being, so to speak. In other words, being is not univocally neither wholly equivocally predicated of different things, but rather analogically. This is defended at length in D. Oderberg's "Real Essentialism", section 5.3 titled "The analogy of being". Here are the beginning and end paragraphs:

    "It is tempting for the real essentialist to think that we can construct a Tree of Everything. We begin with being, it might be supposed, as the highest genus of all, and then we break it up into the kinds of being, descending to ever greater specificity, until we reach the individual beings. There are various reasons why even the most ardent essentialist should resist this thought. For instance, certain categories cut across other categories, making anything like a perspicuous tree impossible. Privations are not real beings but what are called beings of reason or logical beings, that is to say neither forms, nor matter, nor compounds of matter and form, nor in any way a determination of some potentiality. A hole in the ground is not a presence but an absence. Nor is it a mere modification of something positive, namely its physical container. It is a kind of being, but one that is in some sense logically constructed out of real beings that are positive determinations of potentiality. This does not mean you cannot fall into a hole, or that when you do you are only falling into a logical construction! What it means is that the very act of falling into a hole has to be analysed in terms of positive being in order to understand what it really involves. You can describe the shape and structure of the hole in positive terms and analyse the process of falling as a complex relation between your body and those positive modifications of the ground."

    "But the kinds of being are not wholly distinct: they do have something in common, namely that they are all beings of one kind or another. Were we to think of being as equivocal, we would lose the unity of things, the oneness in the many, just as we lose the diversity in oneness if we treat being as univocal. We must, then, treat being as neither univocal nor equivocal, but as analogous. ‘Being’ is an analogous term, i.e. it is applied analogously to the things that fall under it, just as we can apply the term ‘angry’ to people and skies, or ‘healthy’ to animals and diets. We can, if we like, say that being acts like a genus. ‘Being’ expresses the essence of all beings, but incompletely. It does not differentiate between beings. But it is not a true genus. It does not single out some things from others by what the former have in common with each other but not with the latter. Everything is a being of some kind or other. Contra Hoffman and Rosenkrantz (1994: 18) and Lowe (2006: 39), then, it does not belong on any ontological tree. Being is like a genus but not truly a genus. It is a genus by analogy, and, as it is traditionally called, a transcendental concept."

    "So, God is self-caused substance"

    Self-caused is an incoherent concept, so what do you mean by this?

    ReplyDelete
  44. God is Un-Caused not Self-Caused.

    Granted vulgar and or popular descriptions of God may treat them as synonymous(& even moi has done this in the past).

    But it is technically incorrect.

    ReplyDelete
  45. The issue is what counts as a final cause. The final cause of a human being fundamentally comes from their rational soul. A human being cannot flourish from an appetitive and vegetative standpoint, because their essence is rational. In other words, a human being who was brain damaged to the point of having compromised cognitive abilities, despite having fully intact appetitive and vegetative powers, would not be considered to be good or flourishing human being, by any means, except insofar as considered from the specific final causes of those powers. But remember, we are not allowed to decompose living organisms into smaller units that bootstrap higher emergent properties from themselves, because such organisms are supposed to be taken as holistic units, and the holistic unit of human nature has understanding as its final cause. Everything else makes this possible, but the foundation is not always the end, as I mentioned to someone else.

    A human's essence is also animal. The rational part is immaterial and immortal, and is obviously exempt from certain aspects of the natural order. However, in their animal aspect, humans apply to the "life continues life" system as much as a dog or a bush. In addition, animals with only sentient souls have the same goals as plants (survival, nutrition, reproduction, etc.); they just carry them out in a different manner. Certainly they have additional powers and desires--but these are additional, in that they stand on top of the definition of life.

    Again, it does not matter if all living things share vegetative powers, for example. Those powers have their own teleology and final causes, but it does not follow that they are necessarily the final causes of the whole organism. They certainly are when it comes to plants, for example, but when it comes to animals and human beings, there are other final causes that come into play, and it makes perfect sense when talking about the final causes of animals to focus upon their appetitive powers as higher in the hierarchy of final causes, and when talking about the final causes of humans to focus upon their rational powers as higher in the hierarchy of final causes.

    Yet, animals and humans could not live if they did not possess the basic nutritive powers of the vegetative soul. These powers, in fact, seem to be the definition of life itself. Thus far, only the rational part of a human--the part that is immortal--seems to stand outside this order. Even then, this is merely because a rational nature has different requirements for self-perfection than does a sentient or vegetative nature.

    It just is irrelevant to say that all living things strive to exist, because I am only talking about a subset of living things and their final causes. And just because all living things share the same foundation, it does not follow that they necessarily share the same ends.

    If the definition of life is the basic powers of plants, I'm not sure how something living could have a wholly different final cause. Otherwise, it seems that it wouldn't even be alive. Even if we let your pleasure theory in the door, it is stuck playing second fiddle to the vegetative powers that define life.

    ReplyDelete
  46. This is not true. The first thing is to explain what you mean by “flourishing”. Let me give you an example. Say, I am trying to understand the ability of something to Yoitz. Before we can examine what causes something to Yoitz, I need to explain what I mean by “Yoitz”. Until then, we don’t even know what we are looking for.

    Suppose that I come into contact with two alien plant species. I know neither their essences nor their behaviors. However, one of them is abundant and healthy, while the other is wilted and dried out. "Clearly," I think, "the healthy species is doing something right." I then examine which actualizations of potentials allow this to happen.

    The only actualization presupposed here is that of life toward self-perfective activity--which seems incontrovertible.

    So, you would have to explain why virtue is flourishing, but debauchery is not. After all, many people live virtuous lives, but suffer by virtue of living in corrupt societies, and many people engage in debauchery, and find a measure of sustained satisfaction from it. What is the norm, and what is the deviation, and how do you decide?

    It isn't a matter of determining the norm--it's a matter of determining the option that causes flourishing. And this would be a question for Aristotle himself, as I'm not that far into virtue ethics yet. I don't know his (undoubtedly detailed, in true Greek fashion) explanation of the pros and cons of various actions and lifestyles.

    ReplyDelete
  47. Grodrigues:

    Parmenides was right in that there is a rigid dichotomy between being and non-being; he was wrong insofar as there is more more than one mode of being, so to speak. In other words, being is not univocally neither wholly equivocally predicated of different things, but rather analogically

    First, this is where I find things get very interesting, because we are talking about something that strains the limits of thought and language, possibly beyond the breaking point and into incoherence. That is why I find deconstruction and Derrida so interesting, for example. Finding ideas that are both necessary and impossible is most intriguing.

    Second, I do not understand how something can be simple and yet have different modes of being. How exactly does this happen? Is it the same simple thing, but seems different from different perspectives?

    But the kinds of being are not wholly distinct: they do have something in common, namely that they are all beings of one kind or another. Were we to think of being as equivocal, we would lose the unity of things, the oneness in the many, just as we lose the diversity in oneness if we treat being as univocal. We must, then, treat being as neither univocal nor equivocal, but as analogous.

    Why can’t “they are all beings of one kind of another” count as a univocal meaning?

    ‘Being’ is an analogous term, i.e. it is applied analogously to the things that fall under it, just as we can apply the term ‘angry’ to people and skies, or ‘healthy’ to animals and diets.

    But there is a core univocal meaning of “angry” that is shared by both people and skies. It might be something like, “aggressive and threatening behavior that instills fear of harm in others”. Sure, it is expressed differently, but the core must be common for any relation of similarity or analogy to hold. Similarly, as I asked above, why can’t the core univocal meaning of “being” that is shared by all different modes of being be “beings of one kind or another”?

    I mean, take “vehicle” as “mode of transportation”. When saying that a car is like a boat, the common univocal property shared between cars and boats is “vehicle”. When you say that a car is a vehicle and a boat is a vehicle, “vehicle” means the same thing and refers to the same thing, at some level of analysis.

    Now, saying that actual being is like potential being makes sense as an analogy, because they both share the common property of “being” in the sense of “being something of one kind or another rather than nothing at all”. I would say that at this core meaning, one can achieve univocal meaning when applying “being” to both actual and potential being.

    Being is like a genus but not truly a genus. It is a genus by analogy, and, as it is traditionally called, a transcendental concept."

    If Being is like a genus, then there must be some common property between them. That is why it is a “genus by analogy”. I really struggle with the Thomist idea that one can have an analogy between X and Y with there being a common and shared property between X and Y, but at the same time, denying the very possibility of this shared property, especially in the case of the transcendentals and God. Again, this seems to be on the breaking point of incoherence at the limits of our thought and language. And I’m not too sure if it is something real that is simply beyond us, or just incoherent and nonsensical, and thus referring to nothing at all.

    Self-caused is an incoherent concept, so what do you mean by this?

    I just meant that its essence is existence. It exists by virtue of its own nature, and not by virtue of anything else.

    ReplyDelete
  48. I don’t think that you did. You assumed that you had already determined final causes and their ranking, and then applied that framework to particular cases. The framework itself requires justification, and that would require having some kind of a method to decide how to decide from amongst the wide range of possible and actual behaviors of existing beings that range across space-time, both local and distant (in both space and time), which behaviors count as essential (i.e. final causes), and which count as accidental.

    If we both agree that the vegetative powers constitute life, then they certainly seem more fundamental than any alternative theory.

    In other words, to determine how good a triangle is, you need to look at how the triangle is on paper right now, because the paper may become wrinkled later, and the triangle will be less perfect. However, what counts as a perfect triangle must be established before looking at the current triangle in the present. Triangles are pretty easy, but living organisms are harder, because they are concrete particular beings that exist within space-time with multiple behavioral consequences rippling across space-time. The question is which of them counts as the final cause, and how do you determine this.

    The whole abstracting-forms-from-particulars thing comes into play here. It's how we understand the idea of a perfect triangle without ever seeing one (as they are a physical impossibility), for instance. Again, I'm still foggy on the details.

    I was confusing intrinsic teleology with immanent teleology. In other words, the intrinsic teleology of all naturally existing substances is a broader set than immanent teleology, which only occurs amongst living naturally existing substances. That is why a robot factory cannot have immanent teleology, which is only possible for living organisms. But can it have intrinsic teleology, especially if it evolves over time to become autonomous and independent of its creators?

    I think the very idea that it was created--crafted from unconnected parts with specific natures--prevents its teleology from being considered intrinsic. If a robot was built from iron and diamonds (say), then its parts have nothing at all to do with its whole. They are unique, self-contained objects with natures other than "being a robot". They are only subordinate to the whole in the sense that someone has made them subordinate.

    On the other hand, cells are inherently subordinate to the whole. They exist "virtually" within a holistic substance (such as a human), just as H2O exists virtually within water. No one has to force them to operate in this way, as with the iron and diamonds: they just do it.

    And what this question seems to hinge upon is what counts as natural. Part of the argument is that since artifacts cannot be considered natural, i.e. they do not occur in and of themselves in nature, then they cannot ever be thought of as having intrinsic teleology, which is the hallmark of natural beings, but only a derived variety. However, once one accepts that the natural world has evolved over time, then one sees a number of examples of novelty and innovation in which things that were unnatural, because never seen in nature, eventually became natural, because they were plentiful and part of the natural world.

    Yet, in none of these cases was the teleology imposed from the outside. (Unless, unlike myself, you buy ID.)

    ReplyDelete
  49. Rank:

    A human's essence is also animal. The rational part is immaterial and immortal, and is obviously exempt from certain aspects of the natural order. However, in their animal aspect, humans apply to the "life continues life" system as much as a dog or a bush. In addition, animals with only sentient souls have the same goals as plants (survival, nutrition, reproduction, etc.); they just carry them out in a different manner. Certainly they have additional powers and desires--but these are additional, in that they stand on top of the definition of life.

    Perhaps we can agree that living is necessary, but not sufficient, for flourishing. For humans, for example, in addition to living and satisfying their vegetative and appetitive ends, there is an additional rational component that must be fulfilled in order for them to truly flourish. So, one can say that fulfilling one’s vegetative, appetitive and rational ends results in flourishing for a human being, and since all of these are rooted in their respective souls, they are, by definition, part of life.

    Now, moving on, I can agree with the vegetative and appetitive souls as being absolutely essential and necessary for any kind of human flourishing, because without growth and development and the satisfaction of bodily needs, one cannot do anything else with one’s life. The question is what else could be added to result in human flourishing. Aristotle and Aquinas would argue that it must be a rational soul, because abstract reasoning is something that no other living creature can do, which may be debatable, given the presence of rudimentary forms of reasoning in higher primates. But regardless, why does abstract reasoning have to be the pinnacle of human ends? Why not just self-awareness or consciousness? Why not hedonic pleasure? I can grant you everything, but still argue that this extra something that provides the sufficient condition for human flourishing does not necessarily have to be the exertion of our abstract reasoning to understand the world. Sure, this is important, but is it all important?

    If the definition of life is the basic powers of plants, I'm not sure how something living could have a wholly different final cause. Otherwise, it seems that it wouldn't even be alive. Even if we let your pleasure theory in the door, it is stuck playing second fiddle to the vegetative powers that define life.

    Couldn’t one say that the rational soul also plays “second fiddle to the vegetative powers that define life”? Does it follow that they do not matter? And if they still do matter, despite being “second fiddle”, then why can’t I substitute a conscious soul, or a pleasured soul, instead of a rational soul?

    Suppose that I come into contact with two alien plant species. I know neither their essences nor their behaviors. However, one of them is abundant and healthy, while the other is wilted and dried out. "Clearly," I think, "the healthy species is doing something right." I then examine which actualizations of potentials allow this to happen.

    That depends. If the one is abundantly healthy, but then at its peak of health releases a toxic chemical that results in apoptosis and sudden deterioration and death, whereas the wilted one remains alive for dozens of years, then you might have to re-evaluate your initial assessment. Again, just looking at a moment of space-time is not good enough. One must broaden one’s view and perspective and look farther in space-time to observe the states, processes and activities of individual beings and get a sense of their natures and final causes. However, the farther you look, and the more broad your perspective, the more information you have collected, and thus the more choices you have to decide which state, process or activity is the final cause. I am not too sure how one would decide this, and whether there are any rules to guide this assessment.

    ReplyDelete
  50. For example, take the cell. There was a time on this planet when there were no cells at all. Since the cell is the basis of life, because all living things are composed of cells, it follows that there was no life, either. (I’ll ignore viruses, which don’t seem to fit anywhere.) The question is where did these cells come from? Well, they are composed of molecules arranged in a particular way to create a structure with specific functions. So, there was a progression over time from inanimate molecules and chemicals to an animate cell.

    This is an example of the post-hoc fallacy.

    1. There was at one time no life, but only inanimate molecules and so forth.
    2. Life as it exists now is constituted in part by inanimate molecules and so forth.
    3. Therefore, inanimate molecules and so forth evolved into life.

    The question is whether the cell’s teleology is derived from molecular teleology?

    The molecular structure of the cell is, again, virtual. It is subordinate to the whole. The whole (cell) cannot be reduced to the parts (molecules). The cell's teleology is intrinsic to it, as one of its irreducible properties.

    In other words, what makes cellular teleology possible is the particular arrangement of molecules, according to their own teleology. And if the cell has derived teleology, because its teleology is secondary to the teleology of its molecular components and their chemical behavior, then animate teleology is dependent upon inanimate teleology.

    The distinction between a holistic substance and the virtual constituents of that substance alleviates this concern. In addition, even if things were reducible in this fashion, they would still do this inherently and not by artifice. No matter how many times a robot builds another robot, it does so artificially. The parts are not inherently connected to the whole.

    Again, what counts as immanent teleology depends upon one’s starting point, which depends upon one’s perspective. Some things are immanent from one perspective, but derived from another.

    Intrinsic teleology flows from the form inherently. Derived teleology flows from something constructed out of disconnected parts. Certainly, all of it is "derived" from God, but this is only in an equivocal sense.

    ReplyDelete
  51. Rank:

    It isn't a matter of determining the norm--it's a matter of determining the option that causes flourishing. And this would be a question for Aristotle himself, as I'm not that far into virtue ethics yet. I don't know his (undoubtedly detailed, in true Greek fashion) explanation of the pros and cons of various actions and lifestyles.

    But it is. If the majority of a particular species have a specific set of actualized potentials, then why do you decide that a minority are the really and truly flourishing individuals? You might conclude that a plant that invades its neighbouring plants and steals their nutrients to grow extremely large as flourishing, because it is so massive and dominant. However, if it’s increased size results in increased attention from herbivores, and an increased chance of being eaten and destroyed, then you would have to reassess your position. Perhaps the majority of those plants that are actually smaller, that have actualized less of their potential, are the flourishing ones.

    ReplyDelete
  52. As I mentioned, there are a number of different ways to describe objective reality, and where you start affects where you end. If you start with looking at the world from a quantifiable and mathematical perspective, then you end up with physics and scientism. If you start with looking at the world from a perspective in which the natural unit is macroscopic material entities, then you end up with something like Aristotelianism. If you start with looking at the world from a perspective that prioritizes atoms and molecules, then you end up with something like Democritus and Lucretius.

    True. But there are Aristotelian arguments against both atomism and scientism--and I find them to be pretty damning. For example, atomism is based on the idea of a fundamental, unchanging body of particles that constitute all perceived change. Yet, there is no such thing as an unchanging particle as far as we know. Every single one, down to quarks, undergoes substantial change. So it seems that atomism doesn't have a leg to stand on. Scientism, on the other hand, is self-refuting. Its very premise (nothing not describable by science exists) destroys the foundations (philosophy and logic) for its premise.

    Say over time there is a divergence in these two groups such that those who are rational function less effectively in the world than those who are less rational, possibly because of a change in the environment, like those who were too smart created technology that blew themselves up maybe. Now, prior to the rational humans self-destruction, all these humans had the same natures, right? But then after they self-destructed, suddenly the natures changed in the less rational humans.

    They didn't, actually. Their natures are the same: they just aren't fulfilling them completely. Oderberg's example of sterility in mules explains this fairly well. Mules are not incomplete merely because they cannot reproduce. Rather, we can observe dysfunction within the mules' virtual, physical makeup that causes their sterility. Likewise, a rational animal is not incomplete merely because it cannot use its rational functions properly. We can observe dysfunction within its physical makeup that impairs its otherwise-existent rationality. On the other hand, if a race of "stupid humans" evolved without any rational functions--that is, not merely impaired, but entirely gone as a potential--then they would have a different nature.

    Because you said that God did not have a Mind, but had something like a mind. When you used “like” you signed assent to the doctrine of analogy, which was the reason for my question. For me, similarity implies partial identity, because without partial identity, you either have total identity (which would mean that X = Y, which is not likeness or similarity, but identity) or total difference (which would mean that X is nothing like Y, and thus cannot be like or similar to Y). But Aquinas denies partial identity, because that would imply univocal meaning at some level of analysis, which he denies when it comes to an analogy between creatures and God. That’s the problem, at least as I see it.

    I think that Scotus attacked the doctrine of analogy along similar lines, but I, personally, am not familiar with the details. As with a few other points during this debate, you're going to have to take this one up with an expert.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Now, saying that actual being is like potential being makes sense as an analogy, because they both share the common property of “being” in the sense of “being something of one kind or another rather than nothing at all”. I would say that at this core meaning, one can achieve univocal meaning when applying “being” to both actual and potential being.

    "The relation to existence is not the same in that which exists of itself and that which exists by reason of another."

    If you see this, you'll understand why Being is not univocal.

    Univocality implies absolute unity: for example, animality applied to dog and man, "designates in both the same mode of the same thing: a body endowed with sensitive life."

    Being expresses a relation to existence which is essentially varied; the "modes" of this relation are different, though they all share the same relation, i.e., your common "property" if you will, and therefore, given the definition of univocity above, Being is not univocal.

    ReplyDelete
  54. Rank:

    I think the very idea that it was created--crafted from unconnected parts with specific natures--prevents its teleology from being considered intrinsic. If a robot was built from iron and diamonds (say), then its parts have nothing at all to do with its whole. They are unique, self-contained objects with natures other than "being a robot". They are only subordinate to the whole in the sense that someone has made them subordinate.

    But the fact that once it has been assembled, it can function autonomously, and continue to function and replicate into the distant future is a hint. Remember that molecules are not inherently directed towards the production of cells as part of their natures, but once they are assembled in a particular arrangement or form, then they acquire this new power. The molecules themselves are exactly the same whether as part of a cell or outside of a cell.

    I just don’t see the relevance of whether these parts, whether molecular or metallic, are assembled by a conscious mind or an unconscious natural process. The bottom line is that the parts have the same nature both before and after the assembly, and it is only the organization of those parts in that particular form that releases the potential within towards a new holistic unit. After all, if you remove an H2O molecule from a cell and examine it, it will look like every other H2O molecule in the universe, and similarly. There are no life-producing H2O molecules marked from their creation to become part of living organisms.

    On the other hand, cells are inherently subordinate to the whole. They exist "virtually" within a holistic substance (such as a human), just as H2O exists virtually within water. No one has to force them to operate in this way, as with the iron and diamonds: they just do it.

    Similarly, the iron and diamonds have become inherently subordinate to the whole as they are parts in a larger structure that have a novel function of energy utilization, waste expulsion, replication, and so on. Again, you are starting from the larger whole as the paradigm ontological being, and are generalizing from that initial assumption. Of course, from that perspective, the cells exist to sustain the whole. Similarly, from the perspective of the biosphere, trees exist to process oxygen and carbon dioxide, to facilitate water transfer, and so on, but that is only from the perspective of the whole. From the individual perspective of the tree, it is simply trying to pass on its genes into the future, and happens to have acquired a vegetative form to do so.

    Yet, in none of these cases was the teleology imposed from the outside. (Unless, unlike myself, you buy ID.)

    Again, I do not see this as definitive. All things, other than God, have their teleology imposed from the outside, but you do not say that. You say that human beings are intrinsic teleology that they use to create beings that have derived teleology. In other words, it depends upon the context. The reality is that there is teleology, period, and that teleology breeds further teleology. In that context, there is no principled distinction between a living organism and a robot replicating factory that has achieved artificial intelligence and can sustain its existence as long as there are materials and energy available.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Rank:

    This is an example of the post-hoc fallacy.

    1. There was at one time no life, but only inanimate molecules and so forth.
    2. Life as it exists now is constituted in part by inanimate molecules and so forth.
    3. Therefore, inanimate molecules and so forth evolved into life.


    Here’s another argument that you would reject.

    1. At one time, there were no houses, there were bricks.
    2. Houses today are made of bricks.
    3. Therefore, bricks became houses.

    Is that an invalid argument? I mean, the houses are made of the bricks that existed before the houses did. It seems reasonable to conclude that these bricks were organized into houses. One thing I learned early on this blog is the difference between a formal and informal fallacy. Formal fallacies are always wrong, and informal fallacies are sometimes wrong.

    The molecular structure of the cell is, again, virtual. It is subordinate to the whole. The whole (cell) cannot be reduced to the parts (molecules). The cell's teleology is intrinsic to it, as one of its irreducible properties.

    Assumption based upon arbitrary starting point of inquiry.

    The distinction between a holistic substance and the virtual constituents of that substance alleviates this concern. In addition, even if things were reducible in this fashion, they would still do this inherently and not by artifice. No matter how many times a robot builds another robot, it does so artificially. The parts are not inherently connected to the whole.

    But the parts were not always connected to the whole. There was a time when they were independent entities, and after they were arranged in a particular fashion, they became the whole. If you look at things from the perspective of the parts, then they are simply following their own particular teleological functions, irrespective of what is happening in the whole. After all, a liver cell does not care about what a neuron is doing. Each is acting locally according to their natures. It just so happens that their combined efforts create a complex multicellular organism, such as a human being, which has its own teleology that is beyond the teleology of its parts.

    Again, this all just seems arbitrary, not only with respect to where you identify the holistic ontological units to base your metaphysics upon, but also with respect to prioritizing what happens to occur in the natural world in the past and the present as the final word upon what could be natural in the future. What that means is that when prokaryotes dominated the planet, that was what was considered natural, and when eukaryotic organisms evolved, then they would have been unnatural from the perspective of the prokaryotes. And yet, eukaryotes are now considered as natural as prokaryotes. It is just that they have assumed their own autonomous existence in the planet. Similarly, a robot factory that achieves autonomy and independence from its original creators could also be declared to be a novel form of a natural entity.

    Intrinsic teleology flows from the form inherently. Derived teleology flows from something constructed out of disconnected parts. Certainly, all of it is "derived" from God, but this is only in an equivocal sense.

    How is it equivocal? Would anything have teleology without the nature that God created it with? How much more derived can you get?

    ReplyDelete
  56. Now, moving on, I can agree with the vegetative and appetitive souls as being absolutely essential and necessary for any kind of human flourishing, because without growth and development and the satisfaction of bodily needs, one cannot do anything else with one’s life. The question is what else could be added to result in human flourishing. Aristotle and Aquinas would argue that it must be a rational soul, because abstract reasoning is something that no other living creature can do, which may be debatable, given the presence of rudimentary forms of reasoning in higher primates. But regardless, why does abstract reasoning have to be the pinnacle of human ends? Why not just self-awareness or consciousness? Why not hedonic pleasure? I can grant you everything, but still argue that this extra something that provides the sufficient condition for human flourishing does not necessarily have to be the exertion of our abstract reasoning to understand the world. Sure, this is important, but is it all important?

    This is a subject to which the ancient philosophers devoted many, many pages. I recommend this section from Aquinas as a starting point: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2002.htm

    Couldn’t one say that the rational soul also plays “second fiddle to the vegetative powers that define life”? Does it follow that they do not matter? And if they still do matter, despite being “second fiddle”, then why can’t I substitute a conscious soul, or a pleasured soul, instead of a rational soul?

    The rational soul is beyond life and death. I can't imagine how it could be said to play "second fiddle" to the vegetative and sensitive souls.

    That depends. If the one is abundantly healthy, but then at its peak of health releases a toxic chemical that results in apoptosis and sudden deterioration and death, whereas the wilted one remains alive for dozens of years, then you might have to re-evaluate your initial assessment.

    Healthy male mosquitoes die after mating. Length of life is (once again) a projection; and, in many cases, it merely confuses the issue. However, it's true that a wilted-looking plant may in fact be perfectly healthy--that may simply be its appearance at peak health. This would have to be ascertained through further study of successive present states. Eventually, from my reading, this results in knowledge of the essence of the thing in question, which prevents inductive paradoxes like the New Riddle.

    The general point is this: the first step is observation. We see these alien plants exhibiting certain types of behavior, and then we try to understand what constitutes these states of behavior. As life is preferable to death (a separate argument that I'm just going to assume is settled here), we can say that something alive is in some small way healthy--even if, while healthy, it is naturally inclined toward sudden death (as with male mosquitoes). In any case, something dead is by definition not healthy. From this, we can conclude that a living alien plant is doing at least one thing right (being alive), and then work backwards to understand what causes it to be alive--and what causes it to be most fully alive. (To return to the acorn example: it is alive and in that sense healthy even if it is on the floor. It is not flourishing because it is not fulfilling its nature qua acorn. If we do not yet know its nature, we might assume that it is flourishing on the floor; but, if it rots without any other effect, we might suspect that this is not the case. Further testing allows us to discover that it engages in immanent activity--and becomes most fully alive--in dirt. It should become obvious after this that, for an acorn to flourish qua acorn, it should be placed in dirt. All of this is done without presupposing the thing's final cause or essence.)

    ReplyDelete
  57. Again, just looking at a moment of space-time is not good enough.

    For gaining knowledge of an essence, I agree. It takes multiple observations at different times to determine an essence. It does not take multiple observations over a period of time to determine whether something is alive or dead.

    One must broaden one’s view and perspective and look farther in space-time to observe the states, processes and activities of individual beings and get a sense of their natures and final causes. However, the farther you look, and the more broad your perspective, the more information you have collected, and thus the more choices you have to decide which state, process or activity is the final cause. I am not too sure how one would decide this, and whether there are any rules to guide this assessment.

    Once the essence is discovered, you have in some sense a complete knowledge of the thing in question. Obviously, this requires a prior belief in unquantifiable substantial forms; but, if the many arguments for this belief hold, then the existence and knowability of the essence of an acorn, for instance, is not in question.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Josh:

    Univocality implies absolute unity: for example, animality applied to dog and man, "designates in both the same mode of the same thing: a body endowed with sensitive life."

    I don’t understand this.

    “Animality” is not an absolute unity. It can be analyzed further into such things as (a) a combination of form and matter, (b) a combination of act and potency, (c) a nature directed towards the actualization of its final cause(s), (d) consisting of a vegetative and appetitive nature, and so on. Certainly these different components can be combined into a unity of sorts, but an “absolute unity”? I’m not even sure what that means.

    Being expresses a relation to existence which is essentially varied; the "modes" of this relation are different, though they all share the same relation, i.e., your common "property" if you will, and therefore, given the definition of univocity above, Being is not univocal.

    First, I don’t understand this. Animality also expresses a relation to existence that is essentially varied, i.e. there are a number of different types of animals that exist, just as there are a number of different manifestations of Being in reality.

    Second, I still do not understand why it is impermissible to say that potential being is analogous to actual being in that they both have Being. Both potential being and actual being share the common property (broadly construed) of Being, i.e. they are different expressions or manifestations of Being. This is similar to a dog and a cat being different expressions or manifestations of animality, for example.

    When you are focusing upon this common property (broadly construed) of Being, which is shared by both actual being and potential being -- call it Being* to differentiate it from the particular manifestations or expressions of Being -- then when I say that (1) “potential being has Being*” and (2) “actual being has Being*”, doesn’t it follow that “Being*” is univocal between both (1) and (2)?

    ReplyDelete
  59. Rank:

    The rational soul is beyond life and death. I can't imagine how it could be said to play "second fiddle" to the vegetative and sensitive souls.

    I’ve always had a problem with this idea that the immaterial rational soul being independent of the body.

    First, it implies dualism, which hylemorphism is supposed to avoid.

    Second, since matter is the principle of individuation in Thomism, then how does a rational soul get individuated without matter?

    Third, the definition of soul is the form that animates a living organism. How can the principle of life be beyond life?

    the first step is observation. We see these alien plants exhibiting certain types of behavior, and then we try to understand what constitutes these states of behavior. As life is preferable to death (a separate argument that I'm just going to assume is settled here), we can say that something alive is in some small way healthy--even if, while healthy, it is naturally inclined toward sudden death (as with male mosquitoes). In any case, something dead is by definition not healthy. From this, we can conclude that a living alien plant is doing at least one thing right (being alive), and then work backwards to understand what causes it to be alive--and what causes it to be most fully alive.

    What does “most fully alive” mean?

    For gaining knowledge of an essence, I agree. It takes multiple observations at different times to determine an essence. It does not take multiple observations over a period of time to determine whether something is alive or dead.

    For the most part, I would agree. Although there are always instances where organisms appear to be dead, but are not, and thus it would require some time to pass to allow them to revive. Furthermore, how many observations would it take to determine if a virus is alive or dead?

    Once the essence is discovered, you have in some sense a complete knowledge of the thing in question. Obviously, this requires a prior belief in unquantifiable substantial forms; but, if the many arguments for this belief hold, then the existence and knowability of the essence of an acorn, for instance, is not in question.

    It is one thing to say that X exists and is knowable, and another to specify the rules of inquiry by which X becomes known.

    ReplyDelete
  60. “Animality” is not an absolute unity.

    No, no, no, just in terms of the predication of both dog and man. The animality in both is the same univocal concept. That's all it means in this context.

    Animality also expresses a relation to existence that is essentially varied, i.e. there are a number of different types of animals that exist, just as there are a number of different manifestations of Being in reality.

    Animality as such does not have the essential variety that Being as such does; animality is simply a body endowed with sensible life. It's a predicable that inheres in something existing, Being is not.

    Another way of putting it: animality is differentiated by things extrinsic to it (specific differences); Being is intrinsically varied. What is extrinsic to Being to differentiate it?

    Suppose we say Being is defined as "something having esse." You could say two things both have acts of existing (as what they have in common), but you couldn't mean this univocally, as univocality implies identity, and this is two say two distinct things share the same act of existence!

    So there you go, analogy of Being, things sharing the fact that they have esse, differing in how they have it.

    Just in case that's too abstract, compare this to animality between dog and man again. Man and dog have the exact same animality, it's formally present in both (univocal). But they do not have the exact same esse, otherwise they would be the exact same thing. The man's esse and the dog's esse includes all that makes this particular act what it is.

    ReplyDelete
  61. dguller,
    I think that we are getting way off topic here. I am not asking for a global methodology to determine the structure of reality, which is self-justifying and necessarily correct. I was specifically asking for your methodology to determine which states, processes and activities that an existing being is capable of count as a final cause. That’s all. There must be some rules for this activity, even inchoate, that guide your reasoning process. It can’t just be, “Well, I think hard about it, I look around me, and I talk to someone about it.” There must be some standards that count as a right conclusion, and some way to know when one is right and when one is wrong. So, either these standards already exist and you are trying to discover them, or you are making them up as you go along. If the former, then what are they, and if the latter, then how do you know when you are tracking the truth or not?

    I gave you the method and you didn't like it. The method is dialectical, and the standard is nature. My arguments about the ordering of final causes with respect to eating were grounded in the fact that creatures must eat to survive before they can eat for pleasure. That's before not just in a temporal sense, but in logical and metaphysical senses as well. It's hard to get more primary than that. You didn't deny my facts, but responded with ungrounded speculation that it is possible that pleasure is the true end of eating that trumps everything else, even the necessity of survival. Although this response fails the method because it is merely wild speculation ungrounded in any natural facts, you considered it a decisive refutation.

    In any case, for the sake of the discussion, I will try to construct a more acceptable method, and I accept your premiss that a method must be determined a priori before we can begin our investigation, for otherwise we will be unavoidably the victims of wishful thinking and psychological bias. You can help me in my task if you will give me an example and reveal to me the method you arrived at a priori that led you to your knowledge of the natural facts concerning wishful thinking and psychological bias, and your knowledge that method is the critical factor in eliminating wishful thinking. Once I have the example in hand, I think I will be in a position to propose an improved method for determining the order of final causes.

    ReplyDelete
  62. But it is. If the majority of a particular species have a specific set of actualized potentials, then why do you decide that a minority are the really and truly flourishing individuals? You might conclude that a plant that invades its neighbouring plants and steals their nutrients to grow extremely large as flourishing, because it is so massive and dominant. However, if it’s increased size results in increased attention from herbivores, and an increased chance of being eaten and destroyed, then you would have to reassess your position. Perhaps the majority of those plants that are actually smaller, that have actualized less of their potential, are the flourishing ones.

    I'm not sure how this example proves what you want it to prove. It seems to me that the giant plant is not flourishing by definition--in fact, it might be said to possess a defect. In a similar fashion, a flourishing human does not merely take everything he can get his hands on.

    Anyway, even if every human was a down-and-out drunk, it would not follow that down-and-out drunkhood constituted flourishing for humans. Indeed, that lifestyle is mentally and physically destructive. If all humans followed it, then all humans would be defective.

    But the fact that once it has been assembled, it can function autonomously, and continue to function and replicate into the distant future is a hint. Remember that molecules are not inherently directed towards the production of cells as part of their natures, but once they are assembled in a particular arrangement or form, then they acquire this new power.

    By an inherent natural process. Molecules don't "assume the form of a cell"--they're constituent parts of cells, which are entities with substantial forms.

    The molecules themselves are exactly the same whether as part of a cell or outside of a cell.

    Which seems to prove Aristotle's holistic thesis. The powers of cells cannot be reduced to those of molecules. Similarly, cells are not "collections of molecules", but are rather new substances composed of but not reducible to molecules. "Substance" is the key word here. Oderberg denies that artifacts--such as robots--are substances at all. A robot is a collection of iron and diamonds (to return to the earlier example) with a purpose tacked on. The parts have substantial forms, but the whole does not; and so no teleology can flow from its substantial form.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Similarly, the iron and diamonds have become inherently subordinate to the whole as they are parts in a larger structure that have a novel function of energy utilization, waste expulsion, replication, and so on.

    They aren't inherently subordinate, though. They have to be constructed into artifacts, time and time again. And, even once they've been so constructed, they still don't constitute a substance. They're merely parts arranged robot-wise. Let me quote Oderberg again: "An accidental unity is any group of entities related in some way other than by a common form. Examples include: connected series, such as a series of causally related events or a family trees; natural aggregations, such as heaps and the collection of all the events happening right now; physical systems, such as the weather or a flock of birds; a substance and one or more of its accidents, such as seated Socrates; and artefacts."

    Of course, from that perspective, the cells exist to sustain the whole.

    A cell doesn't exist to sustain a whole unless it's part of a whole. Cells are holistic substances just like molecules, atoms, quarks and so forth. It's just that, when these things constitute a further substance, they take on a virtual, subordinate existence within that substance.

    Similarly, from the perspective of the biosphere, trees exist to process oxygen and carbon dioxide, to facilitate water transfer, and so on, but that is only from the perspective of the whole.

    The biosphere is not a substance but an accidental unity, and so this comparison doesn't hold water.

    Again, I do not see this as definitive. All things, other than God, have their teleology imposed from the outside, but you do not say that. You say that human beings are intrinsic teleology that they use to create beings that have derived teleology.

    Again, this is equivocation. "Intrinsic teleology" and "derived teleology" could have wholly different names and still describe the same concept. Call intrinsic teleology "teleology that flows from a substantial form", and derived teleology "teleology that flows from an accidental form". As you can see, your usage of "derived" equivocates between two wholly separate meanings of that word.

    ReplyDelete
  64. Dguller,

    Oderberg's Real Essentialism puts the issue much clearer than I have been, in more contemporary terms. Pp. 105-108 if you have it; I'd be happy to send the relevant section electronically if you don't. Much better to pick apart a concrete text than fumbling about in the ether.

    ReplyDelete
  65. Here’s another argument that you would reject.

    1. At one time, there were no houses, there were bricks.
    2. Houses today are made of bricks.
    3. Therefore, bricks became houses.

    Is that an invalid argument?


    Structurally, yes. Consider what Wikipedia tells us: "The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection." Your conclusion may be true, but your argument to reach it is flawed.

    What that means is that when prokaryotes dominated the planet, that was what was considered natural, and when eukaryotic organisms evolved, then they would have been unnatural from the perspective of the prokaryotes.

    Actually, no. These things all have substantial forms.

    I’ve always had a problem with this idea that the immaterial rational soul being independent of the body.

    First, it implies dualism, which hylemorphism is supposed to avoid.


    Oderberg, who endorses this system, calls it "hylemorphic dualism". It's very different from Cartesian dualism, for reasons he outlines in the last sections of Real Essentialism. I won't go into too many details, but suffice it to say that the rational soul can exist independently of matter even though this is not ideal. In general, it is merely another instance of a substantial form imposed upon matter. A human is not "a soul trapped inside of a body", but rather a body with a soul that survives after death.

    Second, since matter is the principle of individuation in Thomism, then how does a rational soul get individuated without matter?

    Many medieval philosophers had different views on this--Averroes having one of the strangest--, but, in Aquinas's case, it has to do with the unique creation of each soul and the "data" they collect while attached to matter.

    Third, the definition of soul is the form that animates a living organism. How can the principle of life be beyond life?

    A living thing is a body that possesses immanent teleology. If a soul is separated from matter, can it really be described as "alive"?

    What does “most fully alive” mean?

    Most in contrast with "dead", "dying", "limping along" and so forth.

    Furthermore, how many observations would it take to determine if a virus is alive or dead?

    Oderberg describes viruses as "chemical zombies" rather than as living things. He dedicates a few pages to the subject in Real Essentialism.

    It is one thing to say that X exists and is knowable, and another to specify the rules of inquiry by which X becomes known.

    True. However, although I'm sure that I've read descriptions of this by Feser and Oderberg, I can neither remember their contents nor their locations. Apologies.

    ReplyDelete
  66. @dguller:

    To add to what Josh has been saying (and even quoting from the section he mentions):

    "Second, I do not understand how something can be simple and yet have different modes of being. How exactly does this happen? Is it the same simple thing, but seems different from different perspectives?"

    Look at the first paragraph I quoted from D. Oderberg. Holes are *something*, because otherwise we could not fall into them, so what exactly is a hole? Still following Oderberg, we can start by saying that it is an absence or privation. Is a privation nothing? The rigid demarcation between being and non-being kicks in. For then say, how can it have properties? We can meaningfully and truthfully say that this hole is wider than that hole. We cannot ascribe anything to Nothing. But in what sense is a hole a being? Certainly not in the same sense that the container in which the hole is, is. Let us consider then the differences between the hole and its container. Can we abstract them away so as to arrive at a pure, univocal sense of being? No -- see below why.

    "Why can’t “they are all beings of one kind of another” count as a univocal meaning?"

    Quoting again from Oderberg:

    "The second concerns whether ‘being’ is univocal, equivocal, or analogous. If it were univocal it would be like terms such as ‘human’, ‘dolphin’, ‘water’, ‘oak tree’, and so on. All of the things that respectively fall under these terms do so in the same way, for the same reason – they share the essence expressed by each term. Being does not work this way. When we abstract humanity from individual humans, or oak tree from individual oaks, we abstract away the accidents and are left with the essence. We cannot do this with being, since it is heterogeneous: there is substantial being, accidental being, complete being, incomplete being, necessary being, contingent being, possible being, absolute being, relative being, intrinsic being, extrinsic being, and so on. These features of being are not accidents from which we can abstract to form a clear, complete, and homogeneous concept of being. For each and every kind of being, the way in which being manifests itself is essential to that kind (contingent beings are essentially contingent, accidental beings are essentially accidental, and so on). To try to abstract away from these essential features in order to arrive at a concept of being as such is a metaphysical and conceptual mistake, since it is to abstract from what is essential to the kinds of being."

    There is here an implicit reference to earlier arguments of why being cannot be a genus or a species, nor a specific difference, nor a property, nor an accident. I will leave them out to keep the post as short as possible.

    "If Being is like a genus, then there must be some common property between them. That is why it is a “genus by analogy”. I really struggle with the Thomist idea that one can have an analogy between X and Y with there being a common and shared property between X and Y, but at the same time, denying the very possibility of this shared property, especially in the case of the transcendentals and God."

    An intro into medieval theories of analogy can be found where you would expect, here. Pay especial attention to analogy of proportion and analogy of attribution.

    ReplyDelete
  67. Josh & grodrigues:

    Let me just cut to the foundational issues that I have with the line of thinking that you are describing.

    You begin with a doctrine that has specific conditions (e.g. analogy involving a comparison of things that are partly the same, partly different). Those conditions are found not to apply to a particular instance (e.g. Being, or God, has no parts, cannot be a genus, and so on). And rather than following the logic to say that, therefore, the doctrine in question cannot apply to the particular instance (e.g. analogy cannot be applied to Being), you say that it still can, despite not meeting its own criteria. How is that how a contradiction?

    Help me out here. How is this any different from a proponent of scientism saying that all truths must be determined by science, but even though that truth cannot meet its own criteria, still must be true somehow? You would rightly ridicule such a position, and yet it seems that your own ultimately reduces to the same mistake. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.

    Honestly. Give me a definition of “analogy” that does not involve a comparison of two things (broadly construed) having some aspects identical and other aspects different.

    Take two things, X and Y.

    X is defined as having the following attributes or properties or forms (or whatever you want to call them): A, B, C, D.

    Y is defined as having the following attributes or properties or forms (or whatever): A, B, E, F.

    You can say that X is like Y, because they share A and B, but differ in terms of C, D, E and F. That is just what it means to say that something is like something else. You can further say that X is like Y in terms of A and B, which means that you can further say that “X is A” and “Y is A”.

    The issue is whether when you say “X is A” and “Y is A”, “A” is univocal between them. I would argue that it has to be, because otherwise you are not talking about A at all, but rather A1 and A2, and the question is whether A1 and A2 are identical, similar or different, those being the only options. If they are identical, then they are really both just A, and you have univocality. If they are different, then you cannot say that X and Y are similar at all, because similarity requires partial identity. And if they are similar, then you have to ask the further question: what about A1 is the same as A2, and what about A1 is different from A2? And then you are right back where you started from, at the cusp of an infinite regress.

    I find Scotus’ argument, if it is indeed his, completely persuasive on this point. Unless analogy ends in univocality somewhere, then you are stuck with an infinite regress. It ultimately comes down to the following rules:

    (1) You can say that X is like Y, because they have A in common
    (2) You cannot say that X is A and Y is A, because when you say that, they don’t have A in common at all.

    For example:

    (1*) You can say that a dog is like a cat, because they both have Being in common.
    (2*) You cannot say that a dog has Being and a cat has Being, because they don’t have Being in common at all.

    How is that not a contradiction? How is that not example of stepping beyond the boundaries that have been set down?

    ReplyDelete
  68. Josh & grodrigues:

    Here’s another way to look at it.

    Taking the doctrine of causal proportionality seriously, the direction of causality flows from God to creation, and that whatever properties created beings have are derived from and already possessed by God. After all, one cannot give what one does not have. The analogy between God and creatures is supposed to be possible by virtue of the presence of something, call it “X”, in God that he subsequently gave to a created being when bringing it into existence. That is why you can say that creation is like God, by virtue of their shared possession of X.

    So, we should agree that if an analogy to be possible, then both God and a created being must have X in common. Next take the following sentences:

    (1) God has X.
    (2) A created being has X.

    Is X identical, similar, or different in (1) and (2)?

    If they are identical, then you have univocality between (1) and (2).

    If they are different, then you cannot have an analogy, because there is no similarity between God and a created being if they have no X in common.

    If they are similar, then what you actually have is the following:

    (1*) God has X(1)
    (2*) A created being has X(2).

    In which X(1) is partly the same as X(2), and X(1) is partly different from X(2). Call the part of X(1) and X(2) that they share in common, X(*). You can say that X(1) has X(*) and X(2) has X(*), and it follows from this that you can say the following:

    (1**) God has X(*)
    (2**) A created being has X(*).

    After all, X(*) is present in both X(1) and X(2), and thus must be in X, and thus must be in both God and a created being.

    Now, is X(*) identical, similar or different in (1**) and (2**)?

    At this point, we are right back where we started.

    If X(*) is identical between (1**) and (2**), then you have univocality.

    If X(*) is different from (1**) and (2**), then God and a created being have nothing in common, and thus there can be no analogy at all.

    If X(*) is similar in (1**) and (2**), then we need to ask, What parts of X(*) are the same, and what parts are different?

    And it goes on forever, unless you terminate in univocality somewhere.

    Now, if it turns out that it is just impossible for God’s properties to ever be univocal with the properties of created beings, then you have a big problem, because then analogy is impossible, and there is no way to talk about God. So, you accept univocality, except that it is impossible, given the Thomist framework. I would take that as a pretty good sign that the framework contains a contradiction, or at least a significant tension, within itself.

    ReplyDelete
  69. The word "is" (being) is equivocal. It can be used to make a statement about existence ("Obama is real" or "Oliver Twist is fictional") or a statement about essence ("Obama and Oliver Twist are both men.")

    Used in the first sense, a real dog and a real cat can be said to have Being in common in the sense that they both are. Both are being. Sort of like you could say that Fido is like Patches in the sense that they both happen to be running at this particular moment (notice this is different than saying that Fido and Patches share the property of being able to run.)

    That is how the first sentence makes sense:

    (1*) You can say that a dog is like a cat, because they both have Being in common.

    In the most general sense, anything is like anything else in the sense that both have to be in some way even for the comparison to take place.

    Notice that dogs are like cats in as far as both have the property of naturally having four legs regardless of their ontological status (cats in fiction have four legs just as much as real cats). But a real dog has "Being in common" with a real cat in a different way than it does with a fictional dog or cat. Being is not a univocal property that can be applied to things; its not really a property at all, but a state of existence.

    (2*) You cannot say that a dog has Being and a cat has Being, because they don’t have Being in common at all.

    Not in the sense that Being is a property that can be commonly applied to them like any other property. Nor in the sense that the Being that the cat is doing is identical to the Being that the dog is doing; anymore than the running that the cat is doing is the identical act of running that the dog is doing (otherwise, when the dog stopped running, the cat would automatically stop running since the "running" they are doing is one.)

    ReplyDelete

  70. (1) God has X.
    (2) A created being has X.

    Is X identical, similar, or different in (1) and (2)?


    This is simply to deny analogy from the outset. Analogy is not a subclass of identity, similarity, or difference but is its own category co-equal with those. An attempt to stuff it into the category of similarity will of course fail, as dguller's subsequent analysis shows. But this is just to deny analogy altogether, not just with respect to God.

    "His poetry soars like an eagle."

    What is the property that a poem and an eagle have in common that makes them similar and justifies the analogy?

    ReplyDelete
  71. Dguller,

    Believe me, after that fiasco in the winter of last year, I became much more sympathetic to your position, and your definition of analogy as being a combination of identity and equivocal elements.

    But read Oderberg. He shows in those few pages why Being is not a specific difference, a property, an accident, a species, or a genus. He shows why dividing Being into substance/accident or actual/potential doesn't work as a basis for differentiation. And it is these logical conclusions that drive me to understand that Being cannot be understood the way you say.

    The implication of Scotus' conclusion if you're correct, then would be to reduce Being to identity at a general level. This would essentially mean all is one, and deny diversity. All the esse would be the same...

    If you continue to insist treating Being as a universal, or as a property that some substance has, like animality, then you have to answer the question I put earlier: what is extrinsic to Being that differentiates it?

    Let's take it as read that I know your definition of analogy and that I know all the X and Y algebra you employ quite well. My point is that given a proper understanding of Being, that simple definition, which applies well to properties like animality, is not exhaustive of the relations between two analogates.

    ReplyDelete
  72. David:

    In the most general sense, anything is like anything else in the sense that both have to be in some way even for the comparison to take place.

    Yes! That is one reason why analogy is such a powerful tool to expand our knowledge.

    Being is not a univocal property that can be applied to things; its not really a property at all, but a state of existence.

    Again, it would have to be common to both existing dogs and existing cats. They have to share Being in common, whatever you want to call Being, i.e. a property, a quality, a state of existence, or whatever. It has to be present in both the existing dog and the existing cat.

    Not in the sense that Being is a property that can be commonly applied to them like any other property. Nor in the sense that the Being that the cat is doing is identical to the Being that the dog is doing; anymore than the running that the cat is doing is the identical act of running that the dog is doing (otherwise, when the dog stopped running, the cat would automatically stop running since the "running" they are doing is one.)

    First, all that the existing cat and the existing dog need to have in common with respect to Being is that they exist in the sense of not being non-Being. The fact that they are something as opposed to nothing is the commonality between them with respect to Being.

    Second, just because a running dog and a running cat are doing their running at different parts of space-time does not mean that they do not share the fact that they are both running somewhere.

    This is simply to deny analogy from the outset. Analogy is not a subclass of identity, similarity, or difference but is its own category co-equal with those. An attempt to stuff it into the category of similarity will of course fail, as dguller's subsequent analysis shows. But this is just to deny analogy altogether, not just with respect to God.

    First, define “analogy” without using identity, similarity or difference. If you cannot do so, then analogy necessarily requires these concepts to have any sense. If it requires them, then my analysis follows, and Thomism has a contradiction somewhere.

    Second, do you deny the doctrine of proportionate causality? God must give something to creatures that they subsequently possess in order for any analogy to be possible, because the analogy is precisely based upon this common something, which I called X. It can be a property, an attribute, a mode, a quality, or whatever. It just has to be something. Either X is identical, similar or different when compared between God and created beings. You know where this eventually leads. At some point, there must be identity, otherwise you have infinite regress, or a complete disconnect between God and created beings.

    Third, I do not deny analogy. Aquinas assumes that knowledge of God is possible. He postulates the doctrine of analogy, which is based upon the doctrine of proportionate causality, as the mechanism by which such knowledge is possible. The question is whether analogy does the work that he claims it does. I think that it can, but only if one rejects his denial of univocal meaning when applied to God. The only other options, as far as I can tell, are infinite regress or a totally transcendent God beyond the cognitive powers of human beings, neither of which are viable options for a theology. If univocality is necessary for analogy, then it other Thomist principles make univocality impossible for transcendentals, for example, then Thomism both demands univocality and prohibits it when it is applied to God, which is certainly a pretty significant contradiction.

    What is the property that a poem and an eagle have in common that makes them similar and justifies the analogy?

    They both soar or elevate something. In the case of the poem, it is our emotional state, and in the case of the eagle, it is the eagle. Or something.

    ReplyDelete
  73. Josh:

    Let's take it as read that I know your definition of analogy and that I know all the X and Y algebra you employ quite well. My point is that given a proper understanding of Being, that simple definition, which applies well to properties like animality, is not exhaustive of the relations between two analogates.

    Let’s assume that you are correct, and that God cannot ever be understood univocally, for compelling philosophical reasons. I’ll grant you that entirely. So, you should be happy.

    But when you consider that conclusion in comparison to what it means to make an analogy between two things, then you see, as per my analysis, that any analogy, for it to be even possible, must eventually reach a point where two things share a common X (e.g. property, attribute, mode, quality, state, or whatever). If that never happens, then one is stuck with either an infinite regress or a complete disconnect between the two things being compared, making any comparison impossible.

    So, you have a contradiction:

    (1) God cannot ever be understood univocally, ever.
    (2) God can only be understood via analogy.
    (3) Analogy requires univocality to be possible at all.
    (4) Therefore, God cannot be understood via analogy.

    Something has to give, and if nothing can be abandoned for the sake of consistency, then the system is inconsistent, and thus logically compromised.

    ReplyDelete
  74. David T,

    "His poetry soars like an eagle."

    What is the property that a poem and an eagle have in common that makes them similar and justifies the analogy?


    This question interests me, I'd like to take a stab at it.

    This would be in the class of metaphor, I'd think, which is a subset of the analogy of proportionality. Perhaps what you'd say is something like:

    poem:capacity to produce wonder::eagle:ability of flight -wrt 'soaring'

    What do you think?

    ReplyDelete
  75. >The only other options, as far as I can tell.....a totally transcendent God beyond the cognitive powers of human beings, neither of which are viable options for a theology.

    I reply: If God is not ultimately incomprehensible and unknowable in His essence then how is He God?

    This don't sound like a Classical View of God? This sounds almost like a Theistic Personalist "god" which everyone here know I hate with the fire of ten thousand suns.

    Cheers.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Ben:

    I reply: If God is not ultimately incomprehensible and unknowable in His essence then how is He God?

    This don't sound like a Classical View of God? This sounds almost like a Theistic Personalist "god" which everyone here know I hate with the fire of ten thousand suns.


    I am not even talking about being fully comprehensible in terms of his essence. I am talking about knowing anything at all about him. Aquinas states that the only way to have knowledge of God, albeit limited and imperfect, is via analogy. However, analogy demands identity and univocality at some point, at least according to my analysis above, and yet identity and univocality are prohibited when it comes to God, according to Josh and others. So, what is necessary to know God is also impossible to know God. That is like saying that this computer necessarily requires MS-DOS to run a program, but cannot run MS-DOS at all, and yet can still run the program. How does that even make sense? And yet that is what Thomism seems to be saying.

    ReplyDelete
  77. One of the things I find most interesting about this is that everyone who philosophizes must implicitly have a philosophy of Being.

    Given this, the consequences of univocality at a general level of Being become quite clear. All is one. Equivocal being in general? Nothing is one.

    Ah, Dguller says, but how about analogical! 1 Part univocal, 1 Part equivocal. But wait!!!

    What "part" of being is univocal, and what "part" is equivocal that makes this work? Being is indivisible...

    The definition of analogy so treasured must not be exhaustive, some would say, but I'm in love with it, you see, and I'll brook no other lovers!

    ReplyDelete
  78. >I am not even talking about being fully comprehensible in terms of his essence. I am talking about knowing anything at all about him.

    I can know God knows my given name is James. Just like I know my given name is James. I know what it's like to be me and know my name is James but I can't comprehend what it is to be God and Know my name is James.

    Thought I can know via philosophical reasoning He knew what my name would be from all eternity & He knows it timelessly.

    I wonder if you are equating the "unequivocal" knowledge of God with what Aquinas calls the "literal"?

    Because I can know God knows my name will be/is/was James I can conclude He has literal Intellect. That is He can Know. But how he Knows is an unknowable mystery for the likes of you & moi.

    So I am thinking maybe what Scotus calls "unequivocal" Aquinas refers to as "literal"?

    Because Scotus would say God & I both unequivocally have "being" in the sense we both exist vs not existing. But of course God is Existence Itself where as I only participate in existing.

    Maybe this helps?

    ReplyDelete
  79. Josh:

    Given this, the consequences of univocality at a general level of Being become quite clear. All is one. Equivocal being in general? Nothing is one.

    Again, I fully grant that Being cannot be understood univocally or equivocally. It must be understood analogically.

    Ah, Dguller says, but how about analogical! 1 Part univocal, 1 Part equivocal. But wait!!!

    What "part" of being is univocal, and what "part" is equivocal that makes this work? Being is indivisible...


    And there’s the contradiction. By the very definition of “analogy”, there must be partial identity and partial difference. If this is impossible, such as for Being, then one cannot understand it analogically. Just saying that one can is not enough, because I can say that I can imagine a square circle, but it is quite clear that despite my protestations, this is just not possible. And since one cannot understand it univocally or equivocally, either, then it follows that one cannot understand it at all, which is absurd, because we have some idea of Being. So, something has gone wrong in this analysis, because there is a contradiction and inconsistency.

    I don’t see any solution, because rejecting any part of this analysis is just incoherent.

    ReplyDelete
  80. Ben:

    Maybe this helps?

    I'm afraid it doesn't.

    ReplyDelete
  81. Dguller,

    And since one cannot understand it univocally or equivocally, either, then it follows that one cannot understand it at all, which is absurd, because we have some idea of Being.

    We at least can agree on this point, if your definition of analogy is indeed exhaustive. Perhaps we let it rest there?

    ReplyDelete
  82. Josh:

    We at least can agree on this point, if your definition of analogy is indeed exhaustive. Perhaps we let it rest there?

    Sure, but that’s one hell of a place to leave things unresolved! A contradiction at the heart of Thomism? Anybody have any answers?

    ReplyDelete
  83. Perhaps I was unclear: I don't believe your definition is exhaustive. It was never dealt with, but I mentioned repeatedly that Beings are similar in that the act of each is existence, yet they differ essentially in this act.

    God:His being::created substance:its being::accident:its being

    ReplyDelete
  84. By the very definition of “analogy”, there must be partial identity and partial difference.

    This highlights the problem, again. This definition excludes knowledge of Being from the outset. Unless you are prepared to say that Being as such has "parts" (compositio). Or, you can abandon this definition. Seems like those are the only two choices, given that we must have a philosophy of Being, as you acknowledge.

    ReplyDelete
  85. Josh:

    Perhaps I was unclear: I don't believe your definition is exhaustive. It was never dealt with, but I mentioned repeatedly that Beings are similar in that the act of each is existence, yet they differ essentially in this act.

    First, why don’t you think my account is exhaustive?

    Second, define “similar”.

    For me, “similar” is between identical and different, in the same way that something is between everything and nothing.

    Identical = everything the same.

    Different = nothing the same.

    Similar = something the same, and something different.

    That seems intuitively obvious, but maybe I’m missing something.

    God:His being::created substance:its being::accident:its being

    What is something in common that is shared between these three proportions?

    God:His being -> common X
    Created substance:its being -> common X
    Accident:its being -> common X

    What is the X that is shared between them?

    ReplyDelete
  86. Josh:

    This highlights the problem, again. This definition excludes knowledge of Being from the outset. Unless you are prepared to say that Being as such has "parts" (compositio). Or, you can abandon this definition. Seems like those are the only two choices, given that we must have a philosophy of Being, as you acknowledge.

    First, come up with a better definition, then, that not only applies to Being, but also applies to beings, and is consistent with how analogy is actually used in practice.

    Second, it is quite possible that we have no idea what we are talking about when it comes to Being, that perhaps it is a concept or idea that is simply beyond our conceptual powers. That maybe we can abstract from our experience of something there and nothing there, to the idea of something and nothing, and that is the best we can do. Perhaps a science of Being is just nonsensical and impossible due to the limitations of our thought and language?

    Third, perhaps Aristotle’s framework is the problem in that maybe his categories are simply ineffective at capturing Being, and that an alternative needs to be devised.

    Fourth, I never said that we must have a philosophy of Being, but only that we understand what is meant by the word “Being”. Whether we can have a philosophy or science of Being is something that may or may not be possible after all.

    ReplyDelete
  87. dguller


    First, all that the existing cat and the existing dog need to have in common with respect to Being is that they exist in the sense of not being non-Being. The fact that they are something as opposed to nothing is the commonality between them with respect to Being.


    Don't be so sure. They are both something but they are not the same thing. Given that, which part of the cat (or dog) should we say is non-being when compared to the being that is the dog (or cat)?

    Every bit of both exists after all. All that they are is what they are.

    You can't deny analogy then equivocate between "being" as in not-nothing (everything in existence) and "being" as in cat (a particular real being differentiated from other particular real beings such as the dog) for free. As Josh said, that sort of idealism logically concludes in monism.

    ReplyDelete
  88. dguller,

    What is the property that a poem and an eagle have in common that makes them similar and justifies the analogy?

    They both soar or elevate something. In the case of the poem, it is our emotional state, and in the case of the eagle, it is the eagle. Or something.


    I think that is fair enough, but notice that you have used the word "elevate" equivocally. The elevation of an eagle is a literal lifting off the ground, but I'm sure you don't mean that is what happens with our emotions. What property do emotions and eagles flying have in common that can be spoken of univocally rather than equivocally? I don't think there is one.

    You were sporting enough to answer my challenge, so I'll try to do the same with yours (i.e. defining analogy without using similarity.) I'm not sure I can do it, but here goes.

    The reason the eagle analogy works is because we can appreciate the fulfillment of being that occurs when an eagle soars. An eagle is "being all it can be", so to speak, when it is soaring. And when it is soaring, it is setting itself apart from and physically transcending its environment. Notice that the way an eagle fulfills being is unique to it, and that "transcendence" for it means a physical transcendence.

    When a poem is being all it can be, it sets itself apart from the ordinary run of language in a manner that transcends ordinary language, but not in the physical way of an eagle. Both the eagle and the poem are then existing in a mode of transcendence, and this is the basis of the analogy, but it's a mistake to try to point to a property of "transcendence" that both have acquired and can be univocally predicated of the two. And that's because poems and eagles have different ways of fulfilling being; transcendence refers to a relative state of being and so must be spoken of equivocally between different kinds of beings.

    If we want to say that eagles and poems are similar insofar as they superlatively fulfill being, that's fine... as long as we understand similarity is being used in an equivocal manner that doesn't imply a common property between the two, but only refers to the fact that both beings are fulfilling themselves in their respective manners.

    So I'd probably say that analogy refers to a similarity in a relative state of being, with "similarity" subject to the caveats mentioned above.

    ReplyDelete
  89. Josh,

    This would be in the class of metaphor, I'd think, which is a subset of the analogy of proportionality. Perhaps what you'd say is something like:

    poem:capacity to produce wonder::eagle:ability of flight -wrt 'soaring


    I agree that is what we are getting at in the analogy, but does this imply a common property between them?

    ReplyDelete
  90. Jack:

    Don't be so sure. They are both something but they are not the same thing. Given that, which part of the cat (or dog) should we say is non-being when compared to the being that is the dog (or cat)?

    Why does being something have to imply that they are the same thing?

    You can't deny analogy then equivocate between "being" as in not-nothing (everything in existence) and "being" as in cat (a particular real being differentiated from other particular real beings such as the dog) for free. As Josh said, that sort of idealism logically concludes in monism.

    First, I don’t deny analogy. I think analogy works well. The question is whether it applies to comparisons that are not amenable to univocality at some point in the analysis. I also think that science works well, but as many commenters will agree, it does not follow that it works for everything. Each works well within its domain, but there seem to be things that exist beyond its domain.

    Second, pick whichever distinction you want when comparison the existence of a cat to the existence of a dog. I actually think they share both senses of “being” that you mentioned in that neither is nothing, and thus is something, and both are particular somethings. Call the former being1 and the latter being2, and use them to avoid the equivocation. I think the same result follows.

    ReplyDelete
  91. First, why don’t you think my account is exhaustive?

    Because I don't think Being as such has parts, because there's nothing extrinsic to differentiate them. Rather, there's an intrinsic variety to Being as such that is not found in animality, for example:

    "We can quite well think of animal without confusedly thinking of the different species of animals; animality, since it is realized in the same way in all these species, can be perfectly abstracted from the specific differences which are extrinsic to it."

    Not so with Being. It has a relative unity, relative to the manifold ways found intrinsic to it. When we think of Being as such, as that whose act is existence, it unites essentially different things, like substance and accident, necessary and contingent beings.

    Another way of putting it: "There are not several different ways of being man, but there are several essentially different ways of existing."

    What is the X that is shared between them?

    So, given this essential variety, the unity found between two analogates is one of proportion. God is to His Being as the Created Substance is to Its Being. What is the X, you ask? Given an understanding that Being is not a property, an accident, a specific difference, a genus, a species...

    The shared X, so to speak, is a proportionality each being has to its act of existence. They share in the act of existence, and differ in the way of the act, in the one, as a necessary being, Pure Act, in the other, as a contingent being as a mix of act and potency. The unity based on proportion holds.

    Yet Being as such unites these two essentially different analogates, and as such differs from a univocal unity like animality.

    ReplyDelete
  92. David T,

    I agree that is what we are getting at in the analogy, but does this imply a common property between them?

    Given that properties are what follow from a given nature, then no it does not. Don't worry, I think you and I are on the same page ;-)

    ReplyDelete
  93. Dguller,

    I actually think they share both senses of “being” that you mentioned in that neither is nothing, and thus is something

    I think it's important to point out that here you are using "nothing" or non-Being to differentiate some Beings, but this means you are treating it as a positive thing extrinsic to Being, which is not correct. Non-being is parasitic of Being, a privation, and cannot be used to make Being into an actual genus.

    ReplyDelete
  94. David:

    I think that is fair enough, but notice that you have used the word "elevate" equivocally. The elevation of an eagle is a literal lifting off the ground, but I'm sure you don't mean that is what happens with our emotions. What property do emotions and eagles flying have in common that can be spoken of univocally rather than equivocally? I don't think there is one.

    They differ in terms of the respective coordinate systems, but there is still a transition from a lower state to a higher state. The eagle uses spatial coordinates, and the emotions use emotional coordinates. Nobody describes feeling depressed as feeling elevated, flying high, and so on. It is universally described as feeling down and low. That is just how we are wired, it seems. Perhaps you can deny that there is an emotional coordinate system, but then you will have to account for the universality of how emotions are described in physical terms. There must be some commonality between them, and I think that I have captured it, or at least come closer. Any thoughts?

    The reason the eagle analogy works is because we can appreciate the fulfillment of being that occurs when an eagle soars. An eagle is "being all it can be", so to speak, when it is soaring. And when it is soaring, it is setting itself apart from and physically transcending its environment. Notice that the way an eagle fulfills being is unique to it, and that "transcendence" for it means a physical transcendence.

    That is a lovely analysis.

    When a poem is being all it can be, it sets itself apart from the ordinary run of language in a manner that transcends ordinary language, but not in the physical way of an eagle. Both the eagle and the poem are then existing in a mode of transcendence, and this is the basis of the analogy, but it's a mistake to try to point to a property of "transcendence" that both have acquired and can be univocally predicated of the two. And that's because poems and eagles have different ways of fulfilling being; transcendence refers to a relative state of being and so must be spoken of equivocally between different kinds of beings.

    Here’s an analogous way of reasoning. Cars and motorcycles have different ways of fulfilling their being as vehicles. The former do so with four wheels, and the latter do so with two wheels. Therefore, there is no univocal sense of “vehicle” when applied to both cars and motorcycles. I’m pretty sure you’ll agree that this is not a valid line of reasoning, and thus the form of your argument is not necessarily valid or sound.

    If we want to say that eagles and poems are similar insofar as they superlatively fulfill being, that's fine... as long as we understand similarity is being used in an equivocal manner that doesn't imply a common property between the two, but only refers to the fact that both beings are fulfilling themselves in their respective manners.

    First, “the fact that both beings are fulfilling themselves in their respective manners” is the thing in common.

    Second, I think that your explanation is just confused. What do you mean by “similar”? How can things be similar if they have nothing in common? I mean, it basically breaks down as follows, as far as I can tell.

    (1) X and Y have everything in common, which just means that X = Y.

    (2) X and Y have something in common, which means that X is partly like Y, and partly different from Y.

    (3) X and Y have nothing in common, which means that X is totally different from Y.

    ReplyDelete
  95. David:

    Those are the only possibilities that I can think of. Which of them, (1), (2) or (3), would you say captures “similarity”? I don’t think (1) does it, because (1) is just identity. I don’t think (3) does it, because X and Y can’t be similar if they have nothing in common. That just leaves (2). And if (2) captures what you mean by “similar”, then it is just impossible that “similarity is being used in an equivocal manner that doesn’t imply a common property between the two”. That would be like saying that X and Y have something in common, but “that doesn’t imply a common property between the two”, which is just contradictory.

    I mean, you are using words, and seem to be conveying meaning, but it just seems to me that some of your words end up contradicting themselves, and ending up being incoherent.

    ReplyDelete
  96. Nobody describes feeling depressed as feeling elevated, flying high, and so on. It is universally described as feeling down and low. That is just how we are wired, it seems.

    To butt in: this seems like an unargued assertion based solely on the English language.

    ReplyDelete
  97. Dguller,

    The eagle uses spatial coordinates, and the emotions use emotional coordinates.

    You've just, in saying this, implicitly acknowledged the analogy of proportionality. As the eagle's flight is to its spatial being, so is the human emotion to its emotional being. There is no common property. You're using in this analysis the very tool I'm claiming is the valid one applied to analogy of Being!

    Therefore, there is no univocal sense of “vehicle” when applied to both cars and motorcycles. I’m pretty sure you’ll agree that this is not a valid line of reasoning, and thus the form of your argument is not necessarily valid or sound.

    And this is of course wrong because both cars and motorcycles share the exact same proportional relation to their acts of existence, i.e., as created, contingent beings. Therefore a univocal predicate is possible of their essences!

    Sorry for intruding on that one David

    ReplyDelete
  98. Josh:

    The shared X, so to speak, is a proportionality each being has to its act of existence. They share in the act of existence, and differ in the way of the act, in the one, as a necessary being, Pure Act, in the other, as a contingent being as a mix of act and potency. The unity based on proportion holds.

    Help me out here. This seems like the following:

    Take a real car and a real motorcycle. They share in the act of being a vehicle, and differ in the way of the act, in the one, as a four-wheeled vehicle, and in the other, as a two-wheeled vehicle. According to you, what follows? That we cannot specify what it means to “be a vehicle”?

    I think it's important to point out that here you are using "nothing" or non-Being to differentiate some Beings, but this means you are treating it as a positive thing extrinsic to Being, which is not correct. Non-being is parasitic of Being, a privation, and cannot be used to make Being into an actual genus.

    I am not trying to make it into a genus. I’m not too sure if the genus-species categories are relevant to Being, which means that they are not sufficiently broad to capture all facets of reality, which is fine, because our knowledge and concepts are finite and limited, and thus there will be some truths about reality that are just beyond us, such as God’s essence.

    I’m just trying to make the point that what Being and beings share is that they exist. The manner in which they exist will differ, but the fact that they exist, that they are not utter nothingness, is what they have in common. Ultimately, these definitions are interrelated, and are connected to our experience in the material world interacting with things that resist us, experiencing where there are no things, and then inferring from some things and no things to Something and Nothing.

    ReplyDelete
  99. Rank:

    To butt in: this seems like an unargued assertion based solely on the English language.

    Find a counterexample.

    ReplyDelete
  100. Josh:

    You've just, in saying this, implicitly acknowledged the analogy of proportionality. As the eagle's flight is to its spatial being, so is the human emotion to its emotional being. There is no common property. You're using in this analysis the very tool I'm claiming is the valid one applied to analogy of Being!

    I have no problem with analogy of proportionality. I have no problem with any analogy. My problem is with analogies that claim that you can compare two things that have nothing in common. I’ve described what is in common between the flight of an eagle and the flight of emotion, i.e. a coordinate system in which states can change position where one direction is called “higher” and another is called “lower”.

    If you agree that there is something in common between the being of God and the being of a human being, then we have no problem. It is really quite simple. Either there is everything in common, something in common, or nothing in common. That is what logic dictates. You have to pick one of these options as representing analogy. Simply saying that there are often situations in which two things have something in common, but it is really, really hard to figure out what that something is, is a different matter than denying that they have something in common.

    Again, this seems to make the same mistake as those who claim that quantum mechanics allows uncaused events simply because the formalism makes no mention of antecedent causes when predicting the probabilities of subatomic behavior. This is no reason to reject the principle of sufficient reason, or something like it, because that would lead to other absurdities, and thus we should just conclude that our current system of knowledge fails to describe what those causes are, and we should just keep trying until we can.

    Similarly, just because our language gets all muddled when talking about Being’s relationship to beings does not mean that there is nothing in common. Logic dictates that there must be something in common, just as surely as the principle of sufficient reason dictates that there are no uncaused events, and for the same reason. The rejection of it would lead to absurdities, such as that X is like Y but has nothing in common, which is just incoherent.

    ReplyDelete
  101. Dguller: Give me a definition of “analogy” that does not involve a comparison of two things (broadly construed) having some aspects identical and other aspects different.

    Here's an analogy about analogy that might help:
    consider curves in the plane, where curves that intersect are called "alike" — in terms of having something in common, they share an actual point. Now consider a curve that is asymptotic to a certain line. They don't actually have any points in common, but they still bear a special relationship to each other; the line isn't simply "different" from the curve, the way all the other lines are that are nowhere near the curve. Loosely speaking, we might even talk of the curve and the line intersecting "at infinity", but of course you have to be careful of speaking that way or you can get into trouble. Nevertheless, we can be precise and sure about determining the asymptote; it isn't merely "maybe asymptotic" or "approximately asymptotic".

    Analogies to God are something like that. Instead of being the same in the way creatures can be the same, by participating in the same form that both beings share, it's a kind of "approaching" God along a certain path. The transcendentals like goodness or beauty are like different curves approaching the same asymptote, but never actually reaching it. This is important because God is supernatural, beyond nature or essence; He does not participate in any Form, but is the Source of all forms, so He cannot "share" in a form with any other being.

    (I'm not sure what the Scotist view is, exactly. He's sometimes accused of advocating univocality, which Scotists tend to deny. The different sides are using the word "univocally" equivocally, or something. Maybe Scotus was someone who used the "meeting at infinity" kind of language, which could sound like univocality even thought it really wasn't. But it's a subtle situation, as it usually is with the Doctor Subtilis.)

    ReplyDelete
  102. Take a real car and a real motorcycle. They share in the act of being a vehicle, and differ in the way of the act, in the one, as a four-wheeled vehicle, and in the other, as a two-wheeled vehicle. According to you, what follows? That we cannot specify what it means to “be a vehicle”?

    They share in the form of vehicle in their essence, univocally, as man and dog wrt animality. Don't conflate existence with essence; Being is not a noun or property that something "has". We say that a car and motorcycle are (act), and that they are vehicles (what they are).

    If you agree that there is something in common between the being of God and the being of a human being, then we have no problem. It is really quite simple. Either there is everything in common, something in common, or nothing in common.

    It is my understanding that we agree that something is common, but we are arguing about the way it's held in common. I say that between God and Creature, being is held proportionally in common, you say it must be univocally. But it can't be this on pain of Parmenidean monism, on the one hand, or Heraclitean pluralism, if it is held equivocally.

    ReplyDelete
  103. I wish to quote Garrigou-Lagrange again:

    "If...we properly understand unity of proportionality...there is no contradiction in the same analogous perfection existing formally according to infinitely diverse modes. Indeed, even in the created order, knowledge is formally present both in sensation and intellection, although between the two there is no determinate distance. It is not a contradiction for the absolute perfections, which imply no imperfection, to exist in an infinite mode; in other words, they are not repugnant to the infinitely perfect Being. Therefore they can exist formally in the two analogates, infinitely different from each other by their mode of being."

    ReplyDelete
  104. dguller,

    To repurpose a famous line by Hitchens, that which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. It's not up to us to prove your assertion true or false. You made a sweeping claim about all of humanity--and your argument is only coherent if that claim applies universally. So, I recommend that you back off the position that emotional states "really are" like eagles, as it rests on sand.

    ReplyDelete
  105. dguller,

    They differ in terms of the respective coordinate systems, but there is still a transition from a lower state to a higher state. The eagle uses spatial coordinates, and the emotions use emotional coordinates. Nobody describes feeling depressed as feeling elevated, flying high, and so on. It is universally described as feeling down and low. That is just how we are wired, it seems. Perhaps you can deny that there is an emotional coordinate system, but then you will have to account for the universality of how emotions are described in physical terms. There must be some commonality between them, and I think that I have captured it, or at least come closer. Any thoughts?

    No, I don't deny that there are emotional coordinates. But in speaking of them, all we have done is move from equivocating on "elevation" to equivocating on "coordinates."

    The problem is what I said earlier: analogy is its own category, not a category that can be stuffed into similarity. That's the reason your only way to get away from equivocating on "elevation" is to equivocate on something else, like "coordinates."

    The typical positivist position at this point is simply to deny the category of analogy altogether, and dismiss analogies as expressing nothing more than subjective sentiment. You don't seem to want to go there, but your quest to understand analogy as similarity (= having properties in common) I think is doomed.


    Here’s an analogous way of reasoning. Cars and motorcycles have different ways of fulfilling their being as vehicles. The former do so with four wheels, and the latter do so with two wheels. Therefore, there is no univocal sense of “vehicle” when applied to both cars and motorcycles. I’m pretty sure you’ll agree that this is not a valid line of reasoning, and thus the form of your argument is not necessarily valid or sound.


    Right, this is not valid reasoning because "vehicle" is not a state of being. It's merely an abstract property that can be univocally applied (or not) whatever the state of being. Herbie the Love Bug (fictional) is just as much a vehicle as Dale Earnhardt's real 88 car. Their analogy of being is entirely undetermined through the abstract property "vehicle."

    First, “the fact that both beings are fulfilling themselves in their respective manners” IS the thing in common

    Not if you demand that "in common" means "shares a common property", which means abstracting a property that can be applied to a general class of being. The act of the being of Earnhardt's 88 car can't be abstracted from it, precisely because it is the act of Earnhardt's car and no other.

    Second, I think that your explanation is just confused. What do you mean by “similar”? How can things be similar if they have nothing in common?

    They can't be in a univocal sense, which is why I said I was equivocating on the word "similar."

    ReplyDelete
  106. I've been skimming this conversation on analogy with interest as I have time and thought the following excerpts of a commentary on St. Thomas's doctrine of analogy by John Wippel might be of interest. Sorry for the length in advance, but he has a great deal more to say than this in his book.

    The Problem:

    "In effect, therefore, Thomas traces back to Parmenides the two levels of the problem of the One and the Many which we have distinguished above. On the ontological level or the level of being itself, it seems that being cannot be divided from being. It cannot be divided from itself by being, since it already is being. Viewed from this perspective, it is simply one. Nor can it be divided from itself by nonbeing, since this is nothingness. Therefore it cannot be divided at all, and all is one. One the level of the concept of being, if being is regarded as univocal in the fashion of a genus, any difference which might serve to divide it will then fall outside one's understanding of being. Therefore any such difference will have to be dismissed as nonbeing and will be unable to differentiate being." (John Wippel, The Metaphysical Thought of Thomas Aquinas, p. 69)

    St. Thomas on the Analogy of Being:

    "As certain recent studies of analogy in Aquinas have shown quite effectively, the problem of the analogy of being arises for him on two very different levels. First of all, the issue may be raised at the level of beings insofar as they are given to us through sense experience and fall under ens commune -- the subject of metaphysics. Certain writers, influenced by the terminology introduced by C. Fabro, refer to this as the predicamental level. Here Thomas is concerned with showing how being can be applied in analogical fashion to substance and to the other predicaments or accidents. As we have now seen from our review of Thomas's refutation of Parmenides, Aquinas regards it as evident that being is realized in diverse fashion as this level.

    "Secondly, the problem of the analogy of being may be raised at the vertical level or, to use Fabro's terminology, as the transcendental level. Thomas is especially concerned with explaining how being and certain other names can be applied to different kinds of substances and, first and foremost, to God as well as to creatures." (p. 73-4)

    (continued...)

    ReplyDelete
  107. "Thomas notes that something may be predicated of different things univocally or equivocally or analogically. Something is predicated univocally when it remains the same in name and in intelligible content, that is, definition. So it is that 'animal' is predicated of a human being and of a donkey. Each is said to be an animal, and each is an animated sensible substance, which is the definition of animal.

    "Something is predicated equivocally of different things when only its name remains the same, but its definition differs in its various applications. It is in this way that the term 'dog' may be said of a barking creature as well as of a heavenly body.

    "Finally, something is predicated analogically when it is applied to things which differ in intelligible content (ratio), but which are related to one and the same thing. To illustrate this Thomas offers an example [from De principiis, c. 6] originally introduced by Aristotle to illustrate the [pros hen] equivocal character of being, i.e., the oft-repeated case of 'healthy.' Thus the term 'healthy' is said of the body of an animal, of urine, and of a potion, but not with entirely the same meaning in each case. It is said of urine as a sign of health, of a body as the subject in which health resides, and of a potion as its cause. Moreover, each of these meanings is related to one and the same end -- health.

    "Thomas goes on to distinguish different orders of causality which may underlie analogical predication. Sometimes such predication is based on the fact that the various (secondary) analogates are ordered to one and the same end, as in the example of health. Sometimes the analogy rests on the fact that the secondary analogates are related to one and the same agent, as when the term 'medical' is said of the physician who works by means of the art of medicine, and of another who works without that art, such as an elderly woman, and in addition even of instruments used in the practice of medicine. These usages are justified because these secondary analogues are ordered to one agent -- the art of medicine itself. Sometimes such diversity in usage is justified because the various secondary analogates are ordered to one subject, as when being is predicated of substance, of quality, of quantity, and of the other predicaments. Substance and the others just mentioned are not named being according to entirely the same intelligible content; rather the others are so named because they are ordered to substance -- their subject." (p. 75-76)

    "If being is said in different ways, this is always by way of reference to something that is first. In this case the prime referent of being is not an end or an efficient cause, as in the examples of health and medicine, but a subject... Some things are called beings or said to be because they enjoy being (esse) in themselves, that is, because they are substances. Hence these are named being in the primary and principal sense. Others are so named because they are passiones or properties of substance, such as the per se accidents of any substance. Others are so called because they are a process leading to substance, such as generations and motions. Others are named beings because they are corruptions of substance. Since corruption terminates in privation, even privations of substantial forms may be said to be. Again, qualities and certain accidents are named beings because they are productive of substance or of those things which bear any of the aforementioned relationships to substance or any other such relationship. Even negations of those things which are ordered to substance or, for that matter, negations of substance, may be said to be. Thus we say that nonbeing is nonbeing.

    (continued...)

    ReplyDelete
  108. "In summing up these different kinds of things which may be described as beings, Thomas ranks them in terms of the mode of being enjoyed by each. Weakest of all in their claim upon being are those which exist only in the order of thought, such as negations and privations. Coming immediately after these are generation, corruption and motion...[etc.]" (p. 80)

    "Much of what Thomas has to say about analogy occurs in his discussions of our knowledge of and speech about God... Frequently in such discussions, ... Thomas distinguishes between what we may call the analogy of 'many to one' and the analogy of 'one to another.'

    "In the first case a name is said to be predicated analogically because of the relationship of a number of different things bear to some other single thing. So it is, Thomas writes in SCG I, c. 34, with reference to one and the same health, that the name 'healthy' may be predicated of an animal as its subject, of the art of medicine as its efficient cause, of food as that which preserves health, and of urine as a sign of health. In contrast to this analogy of 'many to one,' on other occasions a term may be predicated analogically of two things simply because one of the analogates is directly related to the other, not because the two of them are related to some third thing. To illustrate this Thomas notes that being (ens) is said of substance and of accident analogically insofar as accident is related to substance, not because both substance and accident are related to some third thing. In this context as elsewhere Thomas rejects the analogy of many to one when it comes to analogical names of God and creatures and allows only for analogy of one to another." (p. 82-3)

    "In c. 29 [SCG I] Thomas develops an issue which is of considerable importance for our immediate purpse, and which is also crucial for his doctrine of analogical predication of the divine names, that is to say, the likeness which does or does not obtain between creatures and God. Thomas reasons that even in the case of effects which do not agree with their cause in name or in intelligible content (ratio), some similarity must obtain between them and their cause. 'It is of the nature of action that an agent produce something like itself, since each and every thing acts insofar as it is in act.' From this he concludes that the form of an effect must be present in some fashion in a cause which surpasses it in perfection (an equivocal cause), but according to another mode and with another intelligible content. As an example of what he has in mind, he turns to the case of the sun. Even though the physics of his example is outmoded, the example itself may help clarify his point. According to the physics of Thomas's day, the sun produces heat in lower bodies by action insofar as it is in act; and heat as produced in these bodies bears some likeness to the active power of the sun which produces it here on earth; but it was also thought that heat is not present in the sun in the same way it is present in terrestrial bodies. Hence the sun was regarded as a cause of a higher order. Because of the heat it produces in terrestrial bodies, the sun may be described as hot. But heat is now being applied according to a different definition and with a different intelligible content, and so the sun may be said to be both like and unlike heat as we experience it. In similar fashion, reasons Thomas, God grants perfection to all things. By reason of this, he bears some likeness and some unlikeness to all else." (p. 517)

    ReplyDelete
  109. Mr Green:

    If our knowledge of God never actually reaches him, then how can it be knowledge of him? Doesn’t that commit you to an exclusively negative theology? At some point, there must be some connection, no?

    ReplyDelete
  110. Josh:

    It is my understanding that we agree that something is common, but we are arguing about the way it's held in common. I say that between God and Creature, being is held proportionally in common, you say it must be univocally. But it can't be this on pain of Parmenidean monism, on the one hand, or Heraclitean pluralism, if it is held equivocally.

    I’m glad that we both agree that something must be commonly held by both God and created beings.

    I hope that we also agree that that something must be identical in both God and created beings, at least in some respect. I say this, because I think that our focus upon univocality has been a bit misdirecting, because the core issue is identity. My reading of Aquinas is that he does not approve of univocality precisely because it presumes some identity between God and created beings, and it is this idea of an identity between God and created beings that he finds inappropriate and offensive.

    That being said, if you say that proportionality is the common something between God and created beings, then let’s look at the following propositions:

    (1) God:X has proportion P between God and X
    (2) Created being:Y has proportion P between a created being and Y

    It is because of P that you can say the following:

    (3) God:X::created being:Y.

    Now, you want to focus upon P rather than X or Y, and so let’s focus upon P. My question is whether P is identical in (1) and (2). What do you think?

    ReplyDelete
  111. David:

    No, I don't deny that there are emotional coordinates. But in speaking of them, all we have done is move from equivocating on "elevation" to equivocating on "coordinates."

    I don’t think it is equivocation. It is a matter of abstracting coordinates from physical space, and then taking this notion of coordinates and applying it to non-spatial phenomena. That is why one can make sense of elevated feelings and elevated birds. Sure, it is tricky to do, because our minds inevitably gravitate towards the physical coordinates as the benchmark, and the emotional coordinates as derived, but they still share the common underlying structure. After all, the physical coordinates could not produce the emotional coordinates unless there was something given. I would say that something is the abstract concept of coordinates. When discussing this concept, there is no equivocation.

    The problem is what I said earlier: analogy is its own category, not a category that can be stuffed into similarity. That's the reason your only way to get away from equivocating on "elevation" is to equivocate on something else, like "coordinates."

    First, you haven’t even explained what analogy is and how it works. Just saying that it is its own category doesn’t help, because it just becomes magical. Seriously, when I say that X is like Y, what exactly am I saying? What am I implying? How do I know when I am correct? How do I know when I am incorrect?

    Second, you are discounting the power of abstraction to uncover underlying structures and patterns behind physical particulars.

    Not if you demand that "in common" means "shares a common property", which means abstracting a property that can be applied to a general class of being. The act of the being of Earnhardt's 88 car can't be abstracted from it, precisely because it is the act of Earnhardt's car and no other.

    That is why I also said that the common something can be a property, quality, state, attribute, mode, or whatever. It just has to be the same something between two things. Remember, this is rooted in the principle of proportionate causality. It is a Thomist idea, which is supposed to justify analogy as a route of knowledge about God. Otherwise, how can the principle of proportionate causality justify knowledge of God via analogy, if not by virtue of God’s transfer of something in himself to a created being? If that something was not identical, then how is knowledge of God even possible?

    They can't be in a univocal sense, which is why I said I was equivocating on the word "similar."

    Then don’t equivocate. Just define “similar”.

    ReplyDelete
  112. Sobieski:

    Thanks for the excerpt. I ordered Wippel's book a short while ago, and am adding it to the list of Thomist books I have to read. Just finishing Steven Nadler's A Book Forged in Hell, and then it's off to my Thomist books to get a better grip on some of these issues.

    First, Brian Davies' Aquinas, and then his Thought of Thomas Aquinas, and then Eleanor Stump's Aquinas, and then Oderberg's Real Essentialism, and then Wippel's book, and then Gregory Rocca's Speaking the Incomprehensible God, and then a few others, like Davies' Thomas Aquinas: Contemporary Perspectives and Wallace's Modelling of Nature. Phew!

    ReplyDelete
  113. @dguller

    I think Wippel is a solid historian and Thomist, though I probably lean more towards the natural philosophy/Aristotelian Thomist account for the grounding of metaphysics. You might also want to check out Benedict Ashley's relatively new book on metaphysics from a "natural philosophy" Thomist point-of-view. I have heard good things about it, but haven't read it myself. A friend also recommended "Mind, Metaphysics, and Value in the Thomistic and Analytical Traditions," edited by John Haldane, an "analytic" Thomist. I need to get a hold of Oderberg's book also. So I have some reading to do myself.

    ReplyDelete
  114. Dguller,

    I hope that we also agree that that something must be identical in both God and created beings, at least in some respect. I say this, because I think that our focus upon univocality has been a bit misdirecting, because the core issue is identity.

    I would endorse the Garrigou-Lagrange quote of the same analogous perfection existing formally in both...but I think it would be false to say that it exists identically.

    God:X::created being:Y.

    Now, you want to focus upon P rather than X or Y, and so let’s focus upon P. My question is whether P is identical in (1) and (2). What do you think?


    Let me reformulate your question as: Whether the (::), or the relation between proportions, which is proportionality, is identical.

    Well, we're clearly only applying the transcendentals, the absolute perfections here. Obviously, this relation applied to something like 'anger' would devolve into metaphor, as that term essentially implies a particular mode of being.

    So, given something like Being, I think it would make better sense to say the proportionality is equal rather than identical, as if to say God has the proper proportion to His being as the created Being has to its being. They both can be said to Be, relative to the proper proportion of the perfection in each.

    So we have something like:

    contingent being : its being
    ::
    First Cause : His being

    Where the first two terms are directly known by us, the third (First Cause) is the uncreated analogate indirectly known through the principle of causality, and the fourth is indirectly known "in a positive way from what it has analogically in common with creatures in a negative and relative way as regards its proper divine mode.

    ReplyDelete
  115. One last comment, it seems there is a difference in interpretation among Thomists regarding the kind of analogy used when predicating something both of God and a creature, which stems from a text in De Veritate where St. Thomas seems to prefer the use of the analogy of proper proprotionality over the analogy of proportion (attribution) as referenced in the previous quote:

    "Moreover, even in the present context he notes in replying to the first objection that it is true that God cannot be regarded as similar to creatures. But creatures may be said to be similar to God in some fashion. This notion that a creature may be similar to God without implying that God must therefore also be similar (or related, we may add) to the creature would seem to be enough for Thomas to overcome the objection he has raised against using an analogy of proportion in the case of the divine names. Nonetheless, here he does not pursue this path.

    "Instead he concludes that because no determined relationship is implied by the other kind of analogy (proportionality), there is nothing to prevent us from using that type when we predicate something of God and a creature. This decided preference for what is sometimes called the analogy of proper proportionality has heavily influenced one Thomistic school of interpretation, that begun by Cardinal Cajetan. Most recent scholars regard this particular discussion of Thomas as uncharacteristic of his earlier and later thinking on analogical predication of the divine names, and hence as not reflecting his definitive position..." (Wippel, ibid., p.553)

    It's my understanding that Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange followed Cajetan's interpretation. I say this not to disparage the latter interpretation because I don't know all the details, but only to highlight a difference in interpretation.

    ReplyDelete
  116. Sobieski,

    You are quite right to point out that Thomists differ on Cajetan, and as to which form of analogy applies best; I know specifically that Ralph McInerny thought Cajetan was mistaken on some points. And Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange does seem to defer to Cajetan's interpretations, at least in the text I've been operating from, God: His Existence and Nature.

    However, I would say the relevant controversies are certainly beyond my competence, and most likely outside the scope of this discussion.

    ReplyDelete
  117. Josh:

    I would endorse the Garrigou-Lagrange quote of the same analogous perfection existing formally in both...but I think it would be false to say that it exists identically.

    I’ll be honest. I didn’t understand the quote.

    Let me reformulate your question as: Whether the (::), or the relation between proportions, which is proportionality, is identical.

    Okay.

    So, given something like Being, I think it would make better sense to say the proportionality is equal rather than identical, as if to say God has the proper proportion to His being as the created Being has to its being. They both can be said to Be, relative to the proper proportion of the perfection in each.

    What is the difference between “equal” and “identical”?

    Where the first two terms are directly known by us, the third (First Cause) is the uncreated analogate indirectly known through the principle of causality

    The principle of proportionate causality, as far as I understand it, basically comes down to the fact that something cannot give what it does not have. As Feser writes: “whatever is in an effect must be in some way in its cause”. There must be something in the cause that is passed on to the effect. For example, a material object cannot pass knowledge to the intellect, except via the acquisition of a form, and it must be the case that this form is identical in both the material object and the intellect, because otherwise, this not only violates the principle of causality, but it also makes knowledge impossible.

    So, if you want to use the principle of proportionate causality to justify our ability to know God through creation, then there must be something present in creation that was given to it by God, and this something must be identical in both. I mean, that is precisely how we can know that God is like an intellect, like a will, and so on. There is something in our intellect and will that corresponds to God’s intellect and will. If this was not the case, then how could our intellect and will give us any information about God?

    And here’s another problem that I have with using proportions are routes of knowledge to God. Take the following proportions:

    (1) A dog:a cat with respect to P
    (2) A fly:X with respect to P

    Tell me what you know about X?

    I think you’ll agree that you both know too much and too little about X without already knowing P. Likewise, if you want to know P, you have to already know X, at least. So, when it comes to knowing God, which do we know first: P or X?

    I mean, it just seems that Thomists are quick to throw out their own principles when there is a tension. For example, matter is the principle of individuation, and yet the intellect can continue to exist, and still be the same intellect even independent of matter? How is individuation even possible? Well, I guess matter isn’t the principle of individuation, but rather a principle of individuation. Also, there is the idea that matter cannot exist without form, and yet there must be something to assume a form to begin with, and thus prime matter in some sense exists, just like potential being, in some sense, exists. And the categories are supposed to be ways of describing all of reality, and not just material reality, because they are supposed to also apply to immaterial reality, and yet when it comes to Being, they simply do not apply. And if they do not apply, then how can we even talk about Being, because our language and cognition is rooted in the categories? That’s an interesting question: Does Aquinas claim that our thoughts and language are governed by the categories?

    ReplyDelete
  118. Josh:

    And we cannot know God’s being, because it is too transcendent and beyond us, and yet we can understand it on the basis of our own being, because there is something about our being that is a hint, but we can’t actually know that hint, except in a hazy, fuzzy way, but somehow, we can see through the haze and see something, which is nothing, because whatever you see isn’t the real thing, but which is still something. But what is it? Nobody knows.

    I always have this sneaking suspicion that Thomism gives with one hand and takes with the other. It lays down a principle that is supposed to be intuited from metaphysical principles, and then things get fudged at some point.

    ReplyDelete
  119. @Josh

    I am not completely up on the arguments for and against the different interpretations of St. Thomas regarding the predication of divine names to God. Cajetan, apparently responding to issues of his day, developed and promoted the analogy of proper proportionality, whereas other Thomists, like Wippel, hold that St. Thomas's definitive position regards the analogy of proportion or attribution.

    I have great esteem for Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange as perhaps the greatest Thomist of last century, but am not sure he was correct to defer to Cajetan on this one (vs. some other Thomistic interpretation on the matter). He also discusses the issue in Reality, which is available online. A readily available reference text might assist in your discussion with dguller.

    That said, I do think the analogy of attribution (or analogy of "one to another" as Wippel puts it), which St. Thomas proposes in other contexts, is sufficient to answer dguller's concerns. St. Thomas holds that as God is the ultimate cause of all creatures, so He is the cause of all perfections in creatures, which imitate His infinite perfection in various diverse, but limited ways. Since God is an equivocal cause, His effects fall short of His infinite perfection and divine simplicity. There is a likeness between effect and cause, but the perfections of creatures exist in an eminent and simple way in God. I think this is actually what dguller is getting at, though I don't want to put words in his mouth.

    ReplyDelete
  120. @dguller

    Unfortunately, I probably don't have time (with job, wife and young children, and various responsibilities) to get into a protracted debate or discussion, but St. Thomas does indeed address the issue of individuation of the soul after separation from the body in various places. Finding answers to these types of (somewhat obscure but good) questions often requires searching the texts to find his answer. St. Thomas doesn't always deal with these issues explicitly, but will offer an answer in passing or in response to some objection in a related topic. As an example, see ST 1.76.2 ad 2:

    Whether the intellectual principle is multiplied according to the number of bodies?

    Objection 1: It would seem that the intellectual principle is not multiplied according to the number of bodies, but that there is one intellect in all men. For an immaterial substance is not multiplied in number within one species. But the human soul is an immaterial substance; since it is not composed of matter and form as was shown above (Question [75], Article [5]). Therefore there are not many human souls in one species. But all men are of one species. Therefore there is but one intellect in all men.

    Objection 2: Further, when the cause is removed, the effect is also removed. Therefore, if human souls were multiplied according to the number of bodies, it follows that the bodies being removed, the number of souls would not remain; but from all the souls there would be but a single remainder. This is heretical; for it would do away with the distinction of rewards and punishments.

    Reply to Objection 1: Although the intellectual soul, like an angel, has no matter from which it is produced, yet it is the form of a certain matter; in which it is unlike an angel. Therefore, according to the division of matter, there are many souls of one species; while it is quite impossible for many angels to be of one species.

    Response 2: Everything has unity in the same way that it has being; consequently we must judge of the multiplicity of a thing as we judge of its being. Now it is clear that the intellectual soul, by virtue of its very being, is united to the body as its form; yet, after the dissolution of the body, the intellectual soul retains its own being. In like manner the multiplicity of souls is in proportion to the multiplicity of the bodies; yet, after the dissolution of the bodies, the souls retain their multiplied being.

    As for the categories, they do indeed apply to finite being, which apart from the angelic substance, would mean only material being. The categories are modes of being, with substance being the primary referent. Metaphysics is the study of being as being, and this would primarily concern finite being. The ontological principles of the subject, however, are God (and to some degree the finite separate substances or angels), the consideration of which comes at the end of the science (cf., the philosophical order with which Wippel treats the subject in his book).

    Regardless, we can know something of the infinite, uncreated Being by both negation (i.e., what it is not: finite, composite, changing, etc.) and by analogy. We can get some grasp of what God is by way of similitude because the finite perfections of creatures do indeed exist in God but in an eminent and simple way (or as Wippel puts it in a different mode and with a different intelligible content). Like causes like on the A-T view, but it does not necessarily entail univocal creation in the case of God or generation in the case of material substance. So we can indeed get some notion of the divine essence (vs. absolute nominalism), but not a comprehensive grasp which is altogether impossible for a finite intellect.

    ReplyDelete
  121. Dguller,

    You seem to have shot off in 15 different directions in that last post. I'll stick to analogy.

    So, if you want to use the principle of proportionate causality to justify our ability to know God through creation, then there must be something present in creation that was given to it by God, and this something must be identical in both.

    I would have said principle of proportionate causality if that was what I meant; not the same as what I was referring to though. In that particular example, I was simply referring to the generic 'no being does or cause itself'.

    "This must be identical in both"

    I've said this about ten times: it's the same analogous perfection. The transcendentals can't be identical across modes of being because you can't abstract the modes of being away from a thing to get to a determinate concept.

    A univocal concept of being would express the perfection being found in the same way in all beings, as animality is in dog and man, and all animals necessarily. You can't do that with the transcendentals.

    Everything that is is being. But in that sentence, I'm not expressing an essential "property" or trait or something, that I've prescinded from all Beings. Being as such does not single out some things from others by what the former have in common with each other but not with the latter.

    There is something in our intellect and will that corresponds to God’s intellect and will


    An immaterial creature is to its intelligence what the First immaterial Cause is to His intelligence.

    Equality between two relations.

    What is the difference between “equal” and “identical”?

    Being is realized in both according to its proper mode in both; this is the commonality. It wouldn't make sense to say the Being is "identical" in God and Man; it's to say that the relation between existence and essence is preserved in both proportionally. I honestly don't know which word to use there to describe that commonality.

    (1) A dog:a cat with respect to P
    (2) A fly:X with respect to P

    Tell me what you know about X?


    This doesn't bear the same form as the proportionalities I've been using, so I don't get the point of addressing it. Plus, I don't even know what P represents there.

    If you had used the same form as mine, we know P first, and X (God's positive attribute) last.

    ReplyDelete
  122. And we cannot know God’s being, because it is too transcendent and beyond us, and yet we can understand it on the basis of our own being, because there is something about our being that is a hint, but we can’t actually know that hint, except in a hazy, fuzzy way

    We cannot know God's essence...but as I said above, Being is not a part of essence that you can abstract from it.

    ReplyDelete
  123. Sobieski,

    A readily available reference text might assist in your discussion with dguller.

    Believe me, the books for quote mining haven't left my desk. I wish it could be Real Essentialism between us, as I find it very clear on this matter, but Garrigou-Lagrange's book is more helpful on the abstruse points.

    ReplyDelete
  124. And the categories are supposed to be ways of describing all of reality, and not just material reality, because they are supposed to also apply to immaterial reality, and yet when it comes to Being, they simply do not apply.

    That would be because the categories are Being, realized in its different modes. That's like saying the Tree of Porphyry is useless because the tree itself doesn't fit on a branch.

    ReplyDelete
  125. Josh:

    I would have said principle of proportionate causality if that was what I meant; not the same as what I was referring to though. In that particular example, I was simply referring to the generic 'no being does or cause itself'.

    I was making a general point about Thomist metaphysics. Analogy between God and created beings only works by virtue of the principle of proportionate causality. Without it, analogy is impossible. And I would argue that it justifies the position that there is something identical that is common between God and created beings that flows from God to created beings. I am trying to focus upon this “something identical that is common” in this discussion.

    I've said this about ten times: it's the same analogous perfection. The transcendentals can't be identical across modes of being because you can't abstract the modes of being away from a thing to get to a determinate concept.

    First, I know that you have said this often in your quotes, and I have told you that I do not understand it.

    Second, it is my understanding that the transcendentals are ultimately all the same thing, no? Good, thing, something, true, one all refer to Being, but in different ways, depending upon one’s perspective. The more actual being something has the more true and good that thing is. They are just different descriptions of the degree of Being in something.

    Third, why can’t you “abstract the modes of being away from a thing to get to a determinate concept”? That something exists is different from how something exists, right? Sure, in reality, everything that exists has a mode of being, just as every chunk of matter must have a form, but we can distinguish differences that are still true and real, in a sense.

    A univocal concept of being would express the perfection being found in the same way in all beings, as animality is in dog and man, and all animals necessarily. You can't do that with the transcendentals.

    Again, why not? They all are different descriptions of Being, according to different categories that we happen to have. Here’s a way to put them all together: The more actual being something has, the closer it actualizes its potential final cause, the more true to its final cause it is, and the more good it is. That is what all the transcendentals ultimately point towards, right? So, why can’t that be what is commonly referred to when using different transcendentals? And thus, why can’t that be the univocal core when making an analogy between them?

    An immaterial creature is to its intelligence what the First immaterial Cause is to His intelligence.

    But what is the proportion that is the same, i.e. what is the (::), or what I would call the P?

    Being is realized in both according to its proper mode in both; this is the commonality. It wouldn't make sense to say the Being is "identical" in God and Man; it's to say that the relation between existence and essence is preserved in both proportionally. I honestly don't know which word to use there to describe that commonality.

    First, I agree that there probably is no word to use to describe “that commonality”. The reality is that it is there, but we simply lack the linguistic and conceptual tools to describe it properly. I actually think that is a reasonable conclusion, much more so than saying that there simply is no such commonality, which is just absurd, if you assume that analogy is possible and that proportionate causality is true. The problem is that if it exists beyond our language and concepts, then it also exists beyond our knowledge.

    ReplyDelete
  126. Josh:

    Second, why can’t we say that Being is identical in God and man in the sense that both God and man engages in the maximal actualization of its final cause? Sure, the degree to which their actualization differs, and the manner in which their actualization occurs differs, and their final causes may differ, but at their core, they share the maximal actualization of their final causes, which is what Being is.

    Third, you did not explain the difference between “identical” and “equal”. They seem synonymous to me. How do they differ?

    If you had used the same form as mine, we know P first, and X (God's positive attribute) last.

    I would agree. We first identify the underlying proportional relationship between the two things, and then apply this proportional relationship to the other two things. It still seems to me that the underlying proportional relationship must be the same between the two groups being compared.

    This is how I see things going down. Take the following relationships:

    (1) A:B
    (2) C:D

    Say we know A and B well, and identify a particular underlying proportional relationship P that is common to both A and B:

    (3) A:B with respect to P

    Say we have some understanding of C, but want to extend that understanding to D. We do so by assuming that C and D share the same underlying proportional relationship P:

    (4) C:D with respect to P

    This allows us to use an analogy to understand D better. In other words, by taking our knowledge of P with regards to A and B, we then extend P to C to better understand D. It is by virtue of P that we can know D at all, and thus I agree that we need to know P first before we can know D.

    The problem is that you have been arguing that P cannot be the same in (3) and (4). That would make it univocal, which is impossible. That leaves P being either similar or different in (3) and (4). Different means that P in (3) is totally different from P in (4), and thus no comparison or analogy can be made. And similarity just leads to infinite regress, unless terminated in sameness or univocality.

    ReplyDelete
  127. Josh:

    We cannot know God's essence...but as I said above, Being is not a part of essence that you can abstract from it.

    Then how can we talk about essence and Being separately unless we can abstract Being from essence and vice versa? Whether they can exist separately in reality is irrelevant. Whether they can be analyzed in the mind according to parts is all that is needed. For example, there cannot be a house without its materials, and yet we can conceptualize a house as something over and above its materials. What a thing is and what it is made of are related, but can be distinguished. Similarly, that something exists is distinguishable from what something is.

    This is a move that I dislike. When it comes to prime matter, Feser writes that “we can distinguish between matter having no form whatsoever (“prime matter”) and the various substantial forms that it has the potential to take on. But this distinction is for him a purely conceptual one. In reality, however matter may be transformed, it will always have some substantial form or other, and thus count as a substance of some kind” (Aquinas, p. 14).

    In other words, when our logic leads us to infer the existence of prime matter by virtue of our capacity to distinguish material causes from formal causes, he says that it is just in the mind, but when our logic leads us to infer the existence of Pure Act, then that is fine, and cannot just be something in the mind. Just as there must be Pure Act, given the Thomist metaphysical system, there must be prime matter. Just because prime matter has a paradoxical nature, i.e. it exists, and yet it cannot exist, Pure Act also has a paradoxical nature, i.e. it is absolutely simple and yet manifests itself in a variety of ways, i.e. transcendentals. How can something simple be observed to be different?

    That would be because the categories are Being, realized in its different modes. That's like saying the Tree of Porphyry is useless because the tree itself doesn't fit on a branch.

    But if we can only think in terms of the categories, then how can we think about what is beyond those categories? Again, if someone says that science is the only way to know anything, then it cannot handle any knowledge that is beyond its tools to deal with. I see the issues as analogous.

    ReplyDelete

  128. Second, why can’t we say that Being is identical in God and man in the sense that both God and man engages in the maximal actualization of its final cause? Sure, the degree to which their actualization differs, and the manner in which their actualization occurs differs, and their final causes may differ, but at their core, they share the maximal actualization of their final causes, which is what Being is.


    Suppose I agree with this formulation, and say we can do that. You're still equivocating on "maximal actualization of their final causes," as you were equivocating on "coordinates" in the eagle/poem example.

    I'm starting to think this all comes down to a semantic misunderstanding of univocity/equivocity and what each actually entails.

    Univocal meaning implies same thing in same voice, as in animality from dog to man, where the meaning is body endowed with sensitive powers. You see that identity, I'm sure. It doesn't matter to animality as such that a man is a biped and a dog is a quadruped; it doesn't enter into the meaning at all.

    If I talk about the eye 'knowing' as the intellect 'knows' and talk about it as "possession of form," claiming that's a univocal concept of knowledge, do you see how that doesn't line up? What does "possession" mean? It means two different things in each concrete case of the eye and intellect. Yet we refer to the same thing, "possession of form," but in different voices. There's no univocal core of meaning. Does this mean you say we can't predicate knowing of the eye and intellect meaningfully?

    Contrast that with animality again. 'Body endowed with sensitive powers.' No equivocation on those terms applied to each concrete case.

    Anticipating your next move here:

    Being a biped or quadruped is accidental to animality, intellectual and sensitive "possession" are both essential to an understanding of 'knowledge'. Follow?

    ReplyDelete
  129. Different means that P in (3) is totally different from P in (4), and thus no comparison or analogy can be made. And similarity just leads to infinite regress, unless terminated in sameness or univocality.

    I like what you notated there, I think it is quite clear. As in the example in the post directly above this one (knowledge), we'd have the relation between Ps being similar, in that they refer to the same thing in different voices.

    I really don't think we're as far apart on this as we were long ago.

    ReplyDelete
  130. Sobieski:

    I hear ya about the job and young children. I just have a little downtime at work right now, so I can post this much. But that will certainly change. :)

    Although the intellectual soul, like an angel, has no matter from which it is produced, yet it is the form of a certain matter; in which it is unlike an angel. Therefore, according to the division of matter, there are many souls of one species; while it is quite impossible for many angels to be of one species.

    The problem arises, because for a hylemorphic substance, the principle of individuation is matter. In other words, two human beings have the same form, i.e. human nature, but they differ in how that form exists materially, i.e. as occurring in different chunks of matter in different regions of space-time. And if matter is necessary to individuate substances, then without matter, there would be no individuals or differentiation, but only a single substance. Since immaterial substances lack matter, they lack the principle of individuation, and thus are not individually differentiated, which means that they must be one singular thing.

    It seems that Aquinas’ solution is to imprint the immaterial form with the matter somehow, which is no longer present. It is “the form of a certain matter”, which means that the individuating principle, i.e. matter, is still somehow present within the immaterial form. I don’t find this particularly satisfying. It would be like arguing that you need water in order to hydrate your body, and then remove all the water, and say that you can still hydrate your body because it has the imprint of the water that was there. You wouldn’t live long. Similarly, even if the immaterial form has an imprint of its matter, it still lacks any matter, which is the principle of individuation, and thus cannot be a particular and distinct something. And if it cannot be a particular, and yet still exist, then it is a universal, and singular.

    Furthermore, it complicates the doctrine that forms are universals that can only exist in an immaterial intellect or a material body. If that is the case, then how can a form exist outside of an intellect and a body, which is what is happening to the immaterial soul, i.e. the form of the body, and thus the universal? And if there is a form of a particular being, then why is matter the principle of individuation, unless it is only within the physical world? In the immaterial world, there are other principles of individuation, possibly a different kind of matter than physical matter, an immaterial matter in which the form now inheres?

    As for the categories, they do indeed apply to finite being, which apart from the angelic substance, would mean only material being. The categories are modes of being, with substance being the primary referent. Metaphysics is the study of being as being, and this would primarily concern finite being. The ontological principles of the subject, however, are God (and to some degree the finite separate substances or angels), the consideration of which comes at the end of the science (cf., the philosophical order with which Wippel treats the subject in his book).

    So, if the categories only apply to finite being, then they are inapplicable to infinite being, right?

    ReplyDelete
  131. We can get some grasp of what God is by way of similitude because the finite perfections of creatures do indeed exist in God but in an eminent and simple way (or as Wippel puts it in a different mode and with a different intelligible content). Like causes like on the A-T view, but it does not necessarily entail univocal creation in the case of God or generation in the case of material substance. So we can indeed get some notion of the divine essence (vs. absolute nominalism), but not a comprehensive grasp which is altogether impossible for a finite intellect.

    That is precisely what is at issue. I still contend that if X exists in God “in an eminent and simple way” and X exists in a created being in a different way, then we are still talking about X in both, albeit expressed differently, infinitely perfect in the former, and finitely imperfect in the latter. I can talk about an infinitely perfect triangle versus a finitely imperfect triangle, but still be talking about a triangle in both cases.

    ReplyDelete
  132. Josh:

    Suppose I agree with this formulation, and say we can do that. You're still equivocating on "maximal actualization of their final causes," as you were equivocating on "coordinates" in the eagle/poem example.

    I am not. I am abstracting the commonality between them. If we could not do that, then analogy would become impossible. There has to be something in common between two things being compared, which you agree with. If that something is an abstracted form or concept, then so be it.

    Univocal meaning implies same thing in same voice, as in animality from dog to man, where the meaning is body endowed with sensitive powers. You see that identity, I'm sure. It doesn't matter to animality as such that a man is a biped and a dog is a quadruped; it doesn't enter into the meaning at all.

    Right.

    If I talk about the eye 'knowing' as the intellect 'knows' and talk about it as "possession of form," claiming that's a univocal concept of knowledge, do you see how that doesn't line up? What does "possession" mean? It means two different things in each concrete case of the eye and intellect. Yet we refer to the same thing, "possession of form," but in different voices. There's no univocal core of meaning. Does this mean you say we can't predicate knowing of the eye and intellect meaningfully?

    “Possession” has a primarily physical meaning, as in physical grasping of some object, but it has a derivative sense that is abstracted from the physical context, and that abstracted concept is what allows an analogy between physical activity and mental activity. Otherwise, the analogy would make no sense. The univocality is regarding this abstracted concept that is shared, which is either real or unreal. If it is real, then you have a genuine analogy, because it is grounded in a true relation in reality, and if it is unreal, then you cannot have an analogy, because it is just a mental trick, and not really in the world.

    I like what you notated there, I think it is quite clear. As in the example in the post directly above this one (knowledge), we'd have the relation between Ps being similar, in that they refer to the same thing in different voices.

    But then you have the problem of deciding what it is about the two P’s that is the same and what is different, because similarity just means partly the same, and partly different. And you know where that leads.

    I really don't think we're as far apart on this as we were long ago.

    Josh, I just got a tingle.

    ReplyDelete
  133. Josh:

    And just to elaborate upon the interrelationship between physical descriptions and mental descriptions. It makes sense that mental activities are analogous to physical activities, because the mind is intimately related to the body, and that higher mental functions, such as abstract thought, are rooted in lower mental functions, such as perception and sensation, which are ultimately about bodies in motion and change in the world. That is why we “grasp” thoughts, “perceive” ideas, “resist” ideas, and so on. The body is primary, and the mind is secondary, and thus our analogies and metaphors are ultimately rooted in the body’s activity.

    ReplyDelete
  134. “Possession” has a primarily physical meaning, as in physical grasping of some object, but it has a derivative sense that is abstracted from the physical context, and that abstracted concept is what allows an analogy between physical activity and mental activity.

    I'm fine with the order of knowledge proceeding from material first and immaterial second, but that does not mean that "possession" in that sense has an essence that is rooted in one over the other.

    This is precisely what I was trying to anticipate by showing the essential unity of the concept of animality contrasted with the essential variety of "possession" in terms of knowledge. You can't abstract the material condition away from possession as if it were an accident, to get to immaterial being, because both immaterial and material knowing belong to knowledge properly and essentially.

    You cannot describe 'possession' in terms of knowing between the eye and intellect without equivocating on the voice, and therefore univocal meaning is not possible.

    I think it's clear now that the real conflict is over this point entirely; I do believe that once this is cleared, the rest falls into place re: analogy.

    ReplyDelete
  135. I should clarify: "'possession' in that sense does not have an essence that is rooted in one to the exclusion of the other"

    ReplyDelete
  136. dguller

    You’re priming the comment box for a new record, I see! Anyway I think you are contradicting yourself:


    I still contend that if X exists in God “in an eminent and simple way” and X exists in a created being in a different way, then we are still talking about X in both, albeit expressed differently, infinitely perfect in the former, and finitely imperfect in the latter. I can talk about an infinitely perfect triangle versus a finitely imperfect triangle, but still be talking about a triangle in both cases.
    (bold emphasis mine)

    Whether all this is true or false, you should remember that we began this detour when you said the following of intellect:


    I do not understand why one cannot say that any intellect must also be characterized by (d*) and (e*), and thus anything that does not also have (d*) and (e*) cannot be considered to be an intellect. As such, the source of teleology in nature, having (a), (b) and (c), but not (d*) and (e*) cannot be an intellect at all. It is certainly something, but it is not an intellect.

    I am not even sure that (a), (b) and (c) are sufficient to even count as a mind. After all, the mind is more than just the intellect.
    (again, bold emphasis mine)

    In defending your definition of analogy, any amount of abstraction and equivocation is acceptable to find some common P between some X and Y; but, because the NEGAB should be impersonal by your reckoning (if I’ve read you correctly over your comment history) then only a Divine Intellect matching a warts-and-all description of human intellect would count.

    Have you moved away from your earlier stance on God’s Intellect being something but not an intellect?

    ReplyDelete
  137. Jack,

    I can talk about an infinitely perfect triangle versus a finitely imperfect triangle, but still be talking about a triangle in both cases.

    I think what I would say is that triangularity as such is capable of univocal meaning in the way intelligence is not: a plane figure of three sides. The reason why is that it can be said that triangularity properly belongs to neither the imperfect or perfect/ finite/infinite essentially...

    Knowledge/Intelligence, on the other hand, belongs to both the material and immaterial modes properly and essentially. At least, that's how I'd articulate the difference.

    ReplyDelete
  138. Josh

    I see what you're saying but, to me, dguller's original comment is like saying triangularity's infinitely perfect plane figure of three sides cannot be a triangle because it doesn't have green chevrons while every actual triangle of observation does.

    In transitioning from perfect to imperfect accidents and imperfections can be ignored - except in the case of God's Intellect and the shades of it that are created human intellects.

    Again, to me, that seems like an unjustified exception.

    ReplyDelete
  139. @dguller

    Since immaterial substances lack matter, they lack the principle of individuation...

    For both Aristotle and Aquinas, the intelligences (immaterial, separate substances or angels in Christian parlance) are individual substances, though each would be classified as its own species. Matter accounts for individuation or differentiation in number within a species. So as regards material beings, there can be different individuals within the same species (e.g., humans, dogs, etc.).

    Yet for St. Thomas, there is a two-fold composition in finite material being. The first is the composition of matter and form, which constitutes the nature or essence of a thing, and the second is the further composition of essence and existence (esse). So while there is no composition of matter and form in angels, there is still a composition of potency and act, viz., essence and existence, which accounts for individuation or a determination in being. The justification for this latter composition is that essence in created beings does not necessarily entail existence (e.g., to be human does not mean to exist of necessity). There is only one being whose essence necessarily entails existence because it is existence, and that is God.

    It seems that Aquinas' solution is to imprint the immaterial form with matter...

    Based on the text I cited above, St. Thomas's solution is to say that unity follows upon being. As the human soul's essence and normal state of being is to exist with matter, it follows that after the death of the composite, the soul remains individuated as it was before. The reason, I think, is that the being (esse) of the composite still remains with the soul (form) after death as only the body (matter) corrupts.

    As regards universals, forms only exist as universals in the mind by virtue of separation from matter in the sense of abstraction by the mind from the particulars matter (e.g., this flesh and bones vs. flesh and bones). There are different and further degrees of abstraction from matter (as characterized by mathematics and metaphysics), but I won't go into that.

    ReplyDelete
  140. @dguller

    That is precisely what is at issue. I still contend that if X exists in God “in an eminent and simple way” and X exists in a created being in a different way, then we are still talking about X in both, albeit expressed differently, infinitely perfect in the former, and finitely imperfect in the latter.

    It seems like we may be in agreement then insofar as their is a similitude between God and creature. Where we may disagree is in our understanding of analogy whereby we predicate names of God. I think any kind of reduction to univocity would ultimately lead back to a Parmenidean position, which denies both diversity and change in the world.

    As regards analogy, Wippel reads St. Thomas as saying that univocal predication in the order of being is actually impossible:

    "Central to such reasoning and to the present argument is the view that wherever univocal predication obtains (or membership in a genus, according to the genus argument), there must be some kind of commonness in the order of nature or essence, but not in the order of esse. In the genus argument Thomas reasons that the common feature which is predicated of things belonging to the same genus must be asserted of them in quiddatative [essential] fashion. But the act of being (esse) does not pertain to the quiddity except insofar as that quiddity is received in this or that individual. Because the quiddity or nature is common to all members of a genus and an individual act of being is not common, the two cannot be identified. According to the present reasoning, univocal predication requires commonness in the order of nature or essence, but not in the order of esse; for one act of being can be found in only one being. Because of this, the form signified by esse cannot be predicated univocally; and neither therefore can being (ens) be so predicated." (p. 546)

    So the being of an accident is not that of a substance. Or the existence of blindness (a privation) in a blind person is not the same as that of the person himself (substance). Or within the realm of substance, my being is not the being of a horse. My being is not even your being. Our essences share the common attribute of animality or humanity, true, and in that sense, there can be univocal predication. But our acts of existence are not the same. There is a sameness in difference that we recognize in being. The alternative, it seems to me, is to return to Parmenidean position. As regards God, St. Thomas thinks that the analogy of "one to another" in the sense of one thing imitating another albeit in an imperfect or limited way obtains between God and creature.

    ReplyDelete
  141. dguller,

    I see the conversation has continued quite a ways since our last post, and you are engaging a number of folks, so I'll just cease fire at this point.

    I enjoyed our conversation and hopefully we'll reengage at some point. Peace.

    David

    ReplyDelete
  142. On his list of a hundred things he has got to do sometime in the future I vote Prof Feser should devote a Blog post to dguller's critiques and give his own responses.

    Whose with me?

    ReplyDelete
  143. @David T

    I was enjoying your comments, especially on methodology. Sorry for barging in...

    ReplyDelete
  144. Did some additional reading last night (yeah, I'm cool) and found that Joseph Owens has a nice summary of the different types of analogy. He thinks both the analogy of proportion or attribution, as well as the analogy of proper proportionality can be used with respect to predication of God, the latter type of analogy, though, with some qualifications. For those who haven't read it, I thought it my be of useful:

    "Between the two extremes [univocity and equivocity] are found various types of partial sameness and partial difference. One is analogy. The word was borrowed from Greek mathematical vocabulary. There it meant sameness of ratio or proportion between the respective terms of different pairs. 'Two is to four as three is to six' exhibits the same proportion or ratio in each pair, that of half. Outside arithmetic the sameness does not have to be equality, for instance: 'As a point is to a line so a surface is to a solid,' and 'As sharp is to the sense of touch, so is shrill to the sense of hearing.' The analogous notion is expressible for the first example by the word 'extremity,' and for the second perhaps by the phrase 'sudden, intense, and rather painful sensation.' The sameness of proportion in each case is not equality but merely similarity. It is a likeness in the respective ways in which the terms are related to each other in the two pairs. But the likeness is found in a feature that differentiates the instances. Conversely, the various instances while different in themselves exhibit in that very difference itself enough similarity to require expression in one and the same notion. The one identical notion, accordingly, is partly the same and partly different. Both the sameness and the difference are in the one notion. It is not a a question of differentiating a logically generic notion by a further specific differentia. That would be univocity. In univocity one notion, the generic, makes the instances logically the same. Another notion, the specific differentia, makes them different. In analogy, on the contrary, the one and the same feature renders the instances both alike and different. In the above example, the notion 'extremity' itself is different when used of a line and of a solid. In the first case it means a point, in the second case a surface. Here is found no univocally common generic notion, like 'body' or 'quantity.' No such notion is a genus for 'extremity.' Yet a point functions as the extremity of a line and a surface as the extremity of a solid. That likeness of proportion is contained in their very notions, different as those notions are. On account of that proportional likeness, both point and surface may be expressed by the one notion 'extremity,' and the difference between them may be brought out by adding their respective terms, namely 'of a line' and 'of a solid.' But it is that very difference that shows the proportional likeness. An analogous notion, accordingly, is not divided like a genus into species by added differentia, but into analogates by making explicit its various instances without the addition of any new notion. The notion 'extremity,' for example, does not submerge in any generic unity its instances in a line, a surface, endurance, rage, and so on.

    (continued...)

    ReplyDelete
  145. "The analogy described in the preceding paragraph is called analogy of proper proportionality, because the analogous notion is found in its proper sense in all the analogates. There is also a type of analogy in which the notion is found in its proper sense in only the principle or primary analogate. In a secondary analogate the notion is found merely in a transferred sense. This type of analogy is known as metaphor. In the assertion 'Lindbergh was an eagle,' the nature of an eagle is found just in the bird and not in the man. The notion 'eagle,' accordingly, has its proper notion only in one of the analogates, and so constitutes the bird the primary analogate in the implied comparison 'Lindbergh was to his flying as an eagle to its flying.' The properly analogous notion here is something like 'superb flier.' If plane travel may now be considered a proper sense of the verb 'to fly,' Lindbergh and the eagle may both be called superb fliers through analogy of proper proportionality. But when the ace of the twenties is called an eagle, the sense of the notion 'eagle' is transferred to that of 'superb flier.' In that transferred or improper sense the notion 'eagle' is predicated of Lindbergh through analogy or metaphorical or improper proportionality. The man in this case becomes a secondary analogate of 'eagle.' There is a difference with proportional likeness in ace and eagle as fliers.

    "Another type of partial sameness and partial difference occurs in predication through reference [analogy of proportion or attribution]. The classic Aristotelian examples are 'healthy' and 'medical.' ... In these Aristotelian examples, the nature signified is seen formally in the primary instance only. But there is no reason why in other cases the nature signified should not be present formally in the secondary instances also, though in a lesser degree. For example, the efficient causality of subsistent being [God], as has been shown, is the cause of all other efficient causality. The primary instance of efficient causality will therefore be located in the first cause. Yet all other efficient causes will remain efficient in the formal sense of the notion. They may be understood as efficient causes insofar as their efficiency imitates in an inferior way the efficiency of the primary cause. In this way they are regarded as possessing formally and intrinsically a characteristic found in its highest sense only in the primary instance. To that primary instance the secondary instances are related as its effects...

    "[Pure act or God] may be denominated being, good, intelligent, wise, productive, and so on, with all perfections that are in it formally and eminently. It turns out, of course, to be the primary instance of all these perfections. Yet these perfections become originally known to men through secondary instances. Only later are the secondary instances understood in their true status as feeble imitations of the primary instance. But the imitation is sufficiently manifesting to allow the characteristic to be predicated formally of pure act, through reference.

    (continued...)

    ReplyDelete
  146. "Most of these perfections may also be predicated of pure act by four-term analogy [analogy of proper proportionality]. The two ways of predicating, by reference and by analogy, are not mutually exclusive. By four-term analogy, for example, subsistent being may be likewise denominated a cause. The relation of its proper effect to it corresponds proportionally to the relation of any other effect to its own proper cause. Similarly the wisdom of the first cause may be expected to guide its activity proportionally as human wisdom guides human activity. In this way analogy of proper proportionality enables the human mind to grasp in a proper though analogous fashion the relations of the different perfections to the nature of pure act. Hence emerges the important role of this type of analogy in any study of the supersensible. The analogy presupposes, however, that the nature of the supersensible being is known in some previous way, in order that it may function as one of the four terms in the proportional comparison. In pure act, that nature is already understood as being, in the strictest intrinsic identity. Accordingly there is difficulty in using four-term analogy to predicate being of pure act. The intrinsically distinct concepts are only three." (Joseph Owens, An Elementary Christian Metaphysics, p.86ff)

    ReplyDelete
  147. Busy this weekend. I'll try to post my replies when I have time. But I have to thank everyone Involved for helping to bring these issues better into focus for me. As usual, I suspect the solution is for me to read more.

    ReplyDelete
  148. Josh:

    I'm fine with the order of knowledge proceeding from material first and immaterial second, but that does not mean that "possession" in that sense has an essence that is rooted in one over the other.

    Why not? It would have to in order for the analogy to be possible at all. After all, all analogy is a form of similarity, and similarity requires partial identity, partial difference. There has to be something that is the same in both similar things, or else they are not similar.

    This is precisely what I was trying to anticipate by showing the essential unity of the concept of animality contrasted with the essential variety of "possession" in terms of knowledge. You can't abstract the material condition away from possession as if it were an accident, to get to immaterial being, because both immaterial and material knowing belong to knowledge properly and essentially.

    But you’re not helping your case here. With regards to “animality”, it must be the same with regards to humans and dogs, for example, because otherwise, you could not say that a human is like a dog in that they are both animals. Similarly, if you want to say that knowledge is like holding a rock in that they are both forms of possession, then “possession”, in whatever form is it common to both knowledge and holding something physical, must be the same in both, otherwise you could not have the analogy.

    I mean, your move would be like me saying that knowledge is impossible, because you cannot abstract the form from matter, because form necessarily inheres in matter. We know that we know things, and knowledge demands that the form in matter must be identical to the form in our intellect, because otherwise, we cannot know anything! Can we spell out every detail of this process? Probably not, but that does not change the fact that reason demands that something like it must be happening for knowledge to be possible.

    Similarly, we know that we compare things based upon similarity, and similarity necessarily implies partial identity and partial difference. Come up with another definition that captures what everyone means by “similar”, if you disagree with this. If it is the case that analogy requires similarity, then analogy requires partial identity. Whether we can fully spell out all the details of what is identical is irrelevant. There must be something identical in both things being compared, or else the comparison fails.

    ReplyDelete
  149. Josh:

    You cannot describe 'possession' in terms of knowing between the eye and intellect without equivocating on the voice, and therefore univocal meaning is not possible.

    I am describing “possession” on the basis of whatever it is that is identical in both the intellect and vision, which grounds the similarity. Obviously, my language will be limited in its ability to describe this commonality, because it is predisposed towards the physical characteristics, but it does not follow that they are the only characteristics. Reason demands that there are other abstract characteristics and structures that are common to both the physical and the intellectual processes, and those are what ground the analogy. I mean, when we think of God as simple, we inevitably think about multiplicity by virtue of his different attributes, but we can still know that reason demands that he is simple. I cannot think about triangles without thinking of a particular triangle, but that does not mean that there are no abstract perfect triangles out there.

    I think it's clear now that the real conflict is over this point entirely; I do believe that once this is cleared, the rest falls into place re: analogy.

    You might be right.

    ReplyDelete
  150. I am describing “possession” on the basis of whatever it is that is identical in both the intellect and vision, which grounds the similarity

    Well, then the matter is simple enough: if you can define the determinate concept of knowledge between intellectual and sensitive knowing, without equivocating on the voice, as we agreed earlier univocity requires reference to same thing in same voice, as in animality, then your case is made I think.

    ReplyDelete
  151. Josh:

    Well, then the matter is simple enough: if you can define the determinate concept of knowledge between intellectual and sensitive knowing, without equivocating on the voice, as we agreed earlier univocity requires reference to same thing in same voice, as in animality, then your case is made I think.

    How about this: “something that was beyond one’s power has become within one’s power”.

    ReplyDelete
  152. Josh:

    And here’s something else to keep in mind.

    Even if we lacked the word to describe what is common between two things being compared, then it does not follow that two things do not have that something in common. Again, by definition, they must, and for the same reason that the form in the intellect must be the same form in the material being, because otherwise, you cannot have knowledge. We may be ignorant of how that happens, or the details involved, and may even lack the language to describe the process, but we know by virtue of reason that the form must be the same.

    Similarly, when describing the similarity between perception and knowing, we know, by reason, that there must be something identical between the two, or else similarity is impossible. That something may be an abstract underlying structure that we usually associate with perception that has be found to be present in knowing. The question is whether that something is actually present in knowing, or if it is just imposed upon knowing by our minds. If the latter, then there is nothing in common in reality, and thus no analogy can be possible. If the former, then the only problem is how we can talk about it, given our resources. And even if we struggle to describe it using our language, we still know what we mean, and we mean the same thing between the two.

    ReplyDelete
  153. Jack:

    Have you moved away from your earlier stance on God’s Intellect being something but not an intellect?

    I don’t think so. It depends upon what you decide to call an “intellect”. I was wondering why one would choose some qualities and not others, unless one already wanted God to have an intellect. Obviously, some qualities are more conducive to classical theism, and others are not. Other than begging the question, what is the rationale behind deciding what characteristics an intellect must have, especially if one starts with our intellects at the beginning?

    ReplyDelete
  154. Sobieski:

    Based on the text I cited above, St. Thomas's solution is to say that unity follows upon being. As the human soul's essence and normal state of being is to exist with matter, it follows that after the death of the composite, the soul remains individuated as it was before. The reason, I think, is that the being (esse) of the composite still remains with the soul (form) after death as only the body (matter) corrupts.

    If “unity follows upon being”, then why doesn’t the form of a dog in the intellect have materiality, as well? It is an abstract form, and thus necessarily not concrete and particular, which means that it does not have any matter at all, which is the principle of individuation. What Aquinas is saying would imply that even immaterial things must have matter within them, if they ever were material, and that seems contradictory to me.

    The sameness of proportion in each case is not equality but merely similarity.

    What does he mean by “similarity”?

    In analogy, on the contrary, the one and the same feature renders the instances both alike and different.

    Let me see if I understand this. You are comparing two things, X and Y, in an analogy, by saying that “X is like Y”, and the basis of the comparison is “one and the same feature”, which we can call F. So, “X is like Y by virtue of F”.

    My question is when you say the following:

    (1) X has F
    (2) Y has F

    Then is F is the same, similar, or different between (1) and (2)?

    If F is the same, then you have identity, and thus univocality between (1) and (2).

    If F is different, then you cannot say that X is like Y on the basis of F, because they do not share the same F at all.

    It seems that you would want to say that F is similar, because the quote said: “both alike and different”, which implies partial identity and partial difference. In other words, there are some parts of F that are the same in both X and Y, and there are other parts of F that are different from X and Y. That is what “similar” means.

    ReplyDelete
  155. Dguller,

    something that was beyond one’s power has become within one’s power

    Given that we're talking about the activity of knowledge, I think you could see why this definition would still be inadequate. More in a moment.

    Even if we lacked the word to describe what is common between two things being compared, then it does not follow that two things do not have that something in common.

    Well, I wouldn't dispute that.

    And even if we struggle to describe it using our language, we still know what we mean, and we mean the same thing between the two.

    This is making my point for me, in a way: we "struggle" only if we assume we must have univocal meaning between the two, as we do with animality etc. We can refer to knowing as "possession of a form," and be applying the same words to both intellectual and sense knowing. But unpack the activity of possession; you find it's describing something different in each case. If you can give a definition between the two that doesn't do this, which I have yet to see, then we can have univocal meaning. I of course agree with you that there is something in common between the two; but we're talking about describing it, and univocality is impossible.

    ReplyDelete
  156. @dguller

    If “unity follows upon being”, then why doesn’t the form of a dog in the intellect have materiality, as well?

    I am not sure I am completely understand your question, but I think some distinctions are in order. We have to keep the ontological (mind-independent) and mental (mind-dependent) orders distinct. I think I am correct to say that a concept, idea or universal *exists* in or as a modification of the mind intentionally, immaterially and singularly, but as regards its signification, it signifies universally. That this is so is due to the nature of the intellect, which is an immaterial power of soul not associated with a individuated, bodily organ. Ideas have an ontological status ultimately as accidents of an intellectual substance, to which their existence is ultimately reducible. What they signify, however, is universal and possibly material. If the latter is true, then what type of matter are we talking about? The answer is found in the mind's ability to abstract from the conditions of matter to varying degrees. The mind can abstract from signate or determinate matter, the matter of physical things found in the world (e.g., this dog or this flesh and bones), to common matter (e.g., dog or flesh and bones). The essence of a material thing has to entail not only form but matter as well precisely because it is a material thing. But we do not conceive of things with signate matter or the matter that makes them individuals. Common or non-determinate matter is what is considered in the natural sciences. St. Thomas discusses abstraction as the basis for distinction of the speculative sciences in his commentary on Boethius's De Trinitate. For an in-depth consideration of cognition from the A-T perspective, I would recommend Fr. Owens's book. Dr. Feser has also written a book on the philosophy of mind and may cover these topics, but I haven't had a chance to read it yet.

    It is an abstract form, and thus necessarily not concrete and particular, which means that it does not have any matter at all, which is the principle of individuation. What Aquinas is saying would imply that even immaterial things must have matter within them, if they ever were material, and that seems contradictory to me.

    If matter were the only principle of individuation or determination, then your argument would be cogent, I think. But it is in fact not the only principle for Aquinas as I noted above. Further, any substance, whether material or immaterial, is an individual. God is an infinite, immaterial being; angels are finite, immaterial beings. Neither are universals. So too is the human soul, even when separate from matter.

    (continued...)

    ReplyDelete
  157. What does he mean by “similarity”? ...

    It seems that you would want to say that F is similar, because the quote said: “both alike and different”, which implies partial identity and partial difference. In other words, there are some parts of F that are the same in both X and Y, and there are other parts of F that are different from X and Y. That is what “similar” means.


    Yes, I think that is correct (though "parts" can be used in different ways philosophically). I think he means partial sameness and partial difference. I suppose one could say partial equality, but I think he is using equality more strictly here in the sense of the discrete quantity or number found in arithmetic analogy.

    I think his explanation helps address the point you are making, namely that there has to be some equality or sameness in analogy. In univocity, the sameness between, say, human and dog is on the part of one notion, animal, and the difference is on the part of another notion or notions, like rational.

    With four-term analogy or analogy of proper proportionality, he is saying the sameness and difference are on the part of one and the same notion, albeit considered in different ways. So if we say line is to surface as olympic conditioning is to endurance, the similarity is in "extremity." So long as the terms of the analogous notion are implicit, there is samenees. When the terms "of surface" and "of endurance" are made explicit, however, the difference is manifested. In the first instance, a line falls under the category of quantity and is more specifically a continuous quantity. In the second, olympic conditioning falls under the category of quality and is more specifically constituted by what I would think are good habit(s) or virtue(s) of mind and body. Given this, there is no common genus as we find in the case of univocity. Rather, the sameness and difference are in the one notion, a notion which is being used in a trans-categorical or "trans-generic" way.

    It seems to me that the example above is legitimate. There is a similarity in "extremity," such that we are not falling into pure equivocity as we would when we apply the term "date" to a point in time and to a fruit. If this latter point is true, but analogy really entails a univocity in some way, then the question is what is the common genus? It seems to me, though, that we need not resort to generic commonality to say there is a similarity in such cases.

    ReplyDelete
  158. Josh:

    This is making my point for me, in a way: we "struggle" only if we assume we must have univocal meaning between the two, as we do with animality etc. We can refer to knowing as "possession of a form," and be applying the same words to both intellectual and sense knowing. But unpack the activity of possession; you find it's describing something different in each case. If you can give a definition between the two that doesn't do this, which I have yet to see, then we can have univocal meaning. I of course agree with you that there is something in common between the two; but we're talking about describing it, and univocality is impossible.

    Could you elaborate upon exactly why my definition above fails to meet your specifications?

    Let me repeat it: something that was beyond one’s power has become within one’s power.

    “Something” can mean “anything that can or does exist”. “One’s power” simply refers to “the capacity of any thing to exert influence upon any other thing”. “Become within one’s power” means that “there is a new capacity to exert influence upon any other thing”. “Beyond” just means that “something is not present”, and “has become” just means that “something is present”. Ultimately, it comes down to something that was absent from one’s ability to influence the world has now become present to one’s ability to influence to the world.

    What “something” is changes with respect to knowledge and perception, i.e. abstract information versus sensory information. What one’s power is changes with respect to the capacity to know abstract information versus the capacity to know sensory information. What “beyond” means changes with respect to a physical barrier, i.e. the skin, which demarcates inside and outside, versus an immaterial barrier, i.e. the intellect.

    Again, just because your mind necessarily gravitates towards the physical side of this comparison does not nullify my point. Otherwise, the same argument could be made against all our abstract knowledge. After all, when I think about triangles, I necessarily imagine a triangle, even though that is not what I am thinking about. That is just a quirk of our minds, which does not negate the fact that we do know real and genuine abstract things about triangles.

    ReplyDelete
  159. Josh:

    Your argument basically comes down to the fact that whenever a physical thing is being used to ground an analogy to an immaterial thing, then all our meanings ultimately come down to the physical thing as primary and the immaterial thing as secondary. But so what? Again, that would apply to all abstract knowledge, which I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t want to negate.

    And ultimately, none of it matters anyway, because reason demands an identical “something” between two things being compared. Otherwise, similarity is absurd, and the question is whether you believe that this “something” truly exists within both, or is simply an imposition of our minds from one thing, where it is clearly present, to another, where it is clearly absent. If the former, then whether we can talk about it meaningfully at this time, it is real, and perhaps we should just invent a word to refer to it. But then the problem is just linguistic. If the latter, then there cannot be any similarity at all, and thus analogy falls, as well, because we are not talking about anything real, but only about a projection of our mind. I’m pretty sure that you wouldn’t want to say that our knowledge of God is just a human projection.

    ReplyDelete
  160. Dguller: If our knowledge of God never actually reaches him, then how can it be knowledge of him? Doesn’t that commit you to an exclusively negative theology? At some point, there must be some connection, no?

    We are committed to negative theology insofar as we try to describe God directly; it is only by analogy that we can say anything positive about God. But that is a connection, and a perfectly good one: a line is related to a curve by being its asymptote, and no other line will qualify. Analogical language is connected to the reality of God by really approaching him, even though we as finite creatures will never make it "all the way".

    This is different from the mistake about quantum causation that you mentioned earlier. For one thing, we are here not arguing from ignorance, but to ignorance: God is a "known unknown", but it can hardly be surprising that we can not comprehend God. "Understanding" means to hold a form in one's mind, but God has no form, no essence, no nature — again, He is supernatural — not that our minds are big enough to hold an "infinite form" anyway.

    Another important difference is that our inability to know God does not multiply: it does not apply to anything else, for everything that is not God does have some sort of nature or essence, and thus a form that we can (at least in principle) hold in our minds. In other words, this necessary-Unknown does not "spill out" and affect other things, infecting the rest of reality with scepticism the way back arguments from QM do, because there can be only one such Being. Anything else either turns out to be simply God, or if it really is different, then by definition has some differentiator, i.e. it has some property or some nature, it participates in some Form such that we can identify as a being different from God. But then again, if it has a nature, it can be understood.

    ReplyDelete
  161. Dguller,

    Let me repeat it: something that was beyond one’s power has become within one’s power.

    What does "become within" mean in each instance?

    new capacity to exert influence upon any other thing

    What does "exert influence" mean in each instance?

    You can see where I'm going with this...the identical aspect of the "voice" to each referent will never be in place with respect to a transcendental, making univocal understanding impossible.

    Otherwise, the same argument could be made against all our abstract knowledge. After all, when I think about triangles, I necessarily imagine a triangle, even though that is not what I am thinking about. That is just a quirk of our minds, which does not negate the fact that we do know real and genuine abstract things about triangles.

    Key difference: univocal meaning of triangularity is possible because it's not a transcendental as such. 'Plane figure of three sides' fits into the category of quantity; knowledge/intelligence transcends the categories.

    This is why I think St. Thomas defined knowledge as "the possession of the form of another as another, according to one’s natural mode of possession.”

    That's included in the definition for a reason, because he realized possession wouldn't have a univocal meaning between two different modes of being.

    For example, we can get to the essential definition of triangularity by abstracting the accidents away; color, curved lines, etc.

    What are the accidents we abstract away to get to the essential definition of knowledge, or being? Sense knowledge? Intellectual knowledge? Material conditions? The natural mode of knowledge? What are you left with? The answer is nothing, because all are essential, proper types of knowledge; they aren't accidental to it.

    I'm limiting this critique as such to those transcendental activities such as being, knowing, etc. Another aspect of these analogous terms is that they function as verbs and participles, as opposed to a property noun like triangularity, animality, etc.

    Your argument basically comes down to the fact that whenever a physical thing is being used to ground an analogy to an immaterial thing, then all our meanings ultimately come down to the physical thing as primary and the immaterial thing as secondary

    I certainly don't intend to imply this at all.

    ReplyDelete
  162. Josh:

    What does "become within" mean in each instance?

    What was absent, has become present. What was not there, is now there. What did not actually exist, is now actually existing.

    What does "exert influence" mean in each instance?

    Actualize potential in something else.

    Key difference: univocal meaning of triangularity is possible because it's not a transcendental as such. 'Plane figure of three sides' fits into the category of quantity; knowledge/intelligence transcends the categories.

    First, even if it fits into the category of quantity, it is still the case that our minds inevitably conceive of particular and concrete triangles whenever they think about universal and abstract triangles. And if that is the case, then even thinking about triangles is never as pure as it seems it would have to be to avoid your objection to my argument about analogy. In other words, you are looking for meanings of terms that are utterly devoid of any sensory or physical conceptual underpinnings, which I am saying is likely impossible, given how our minds work, but it does not follow from our conceptual and cognitive limitations that when we think about these concepts that they are not referring to a common abstract underlying structure that makes the comparison even possible.

    Second, why not just add a new category of “possession”, then? I mean, if that is what is necessary to have any knowledge of the divine, then just add it to the list of categories.

    What are the accidents we abstract away to get to the essential definition of knowledge, or being? Sense knowledge? Intellectual knowledge? Material conditions? The natural mode of knowledge? What are you left with? The answer is nothing, because all are essential, proper types of knowledge; they aren't accidental to it.

    But all involve the mental acquisition of external information and making it internal. This is the case whether we are talking about knowledge about concrete particulars or abstract universals, for example. And again, this whole inside-outside framework is primarily a physical one -- but all mathematics is the same, because it is originally rooted in the empirical world, and you wouldn’t want to deny a genuine abstract sense to mathematical terms -- and for it to apply to the mind at all in a genuine analogy, then it would have to share something in common with it. My argument is that there is an abstract sense to inside-outside that is common, and perhaps this inside-outside should a fundamental category along with the others, or maybe it should be subsumed under one, such as a continuous quantity. Perhaps that would solve the issue?

    I mean, it is all subsumed under substance anyway. A substance is a particular existing thing, which is separate from other particular existing things. Boundaries are part of the essence of all substances, and even the intellect has a boundary as part of its definition. Forms that are present in material beings are abstracted into the intellect. If “in” didn’t have a fundamentally abstract core that was applicable to both material beings and the intellect, then how is a similarity relationship even possible?

    ReplyDelete
  163. Josh:

    I think that our discussion ultimately comes down to this. We both agree that for analogy to be possible, there must be a similarity relationship, which implies partial identity and partial difference. There is a “something” (call it S) that is really shared and truly identical in both things being compared. The issue is how we can know and talk about S. Your argument is that whenever we try to think or talk about S, we inevitably bring in the differences (call them D), which means that we can never think or talk about S, but only about S-D. And because of this, we can never have univocality, because that presupposes our ability to think or talk only about S and not S-D, which you argue is simply impossible.

    My counter-argument is that this logic applies to all abstract knowledge, which are necessarily abstracted from the material world, and thus whenever we think about anything abstract, and use it in a comparison or similarity relationship, then we necessarily think S-D and not just S. And that would preclude any univocality when discussing abstract subjects, as well, which would rob them of their precision and accuracy. And I’m pretty sure that logicians and mathematicians would disagree with this account.

    Your response is that mathematics is subsumed under the category of “quantity”, and thus has a genus already present within our cognitive system, and thus, despite our cognitive inability to conceive of S alone, but rather only S-D, we are still able to have univocal meaning, or S, when comparing quantitative things to one another.

    I think that this is dubious, because all the categories presuppose the category of inside-outside, because there is substance, and then there is all the other categories, which exist inside a substance. It is a primitive concept, and thus either is a part of other categories already, such as continuous quantity, or should have its own independent category, because all the others presuppose it. And if it has a category, old or new, then your objection fails.

    So, the concept of boundary (or inside-outside, interior-exterior, internal-external, and so on) is valid, and thus so is my argument that knowledge is like perception in that something outside the boundary has now become inside the boundary. It is irrelevant that whenever I think about a boundary, I inevitably think about something particular and concrete and physical, because (a) we do the same thing with mathematics, and yet can use univocal meaning, and (b) boundary is a legitimate category, either as a novel and necessary one, or as subsumed under another one, and thus univocality can be based upon this category, as it is when talking about mathematics.

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  164. Sobieski:

    With four-term analogy or analogy of proper proportionality, he is saying the sameness and difference are on the part of one and the same notion, albeit considered in different ways. So if we say line is to surface as olympic conditioning is to endurance, the similarity is in "extremity." So long as the terms of the analogous notion are implicit, there is samenees. When the terms "of surface" and "of endurance" are made explicit, however, the difference is manifested. In the first instance, a line falls under the category of quantity and is more specifically a continuous quantity. In the second, olympic conditioning falls under the category of quality and is more specifically constituted by what I would think are good habit(s) or virtue(s) of mind and body. Given this, there is no common genus as we find in the case of univocity. Rather, the sameness and difference are in the one notion, a notion which is being used in a trans-categorical or "trans-generic" way.

    Let me spell this out a little.

    (1) Line to surface, by virtue of “in extremity”
    (2) Olympic conditioning to endurance, by virtue of “in extremity”

    I do not understand the analogy at all.

    With regards to (1), how is a line and surface related by virtue of extremity? “Extremity”, to me, implies being close to a limit, whether within it or beyond it. Perhaps you mean that the line is the limit of the surface, and demarcates a boundary between the surface and what is beyond it.

    With regards to (2), I can understand that “endurance” means “being able to sustain an activity, even while close to its limits”, and this certainly applies to Olympic conditioning. Again, the common theme is “reaching a limit or boundary”.

    So, the connection between the proportions in (1) and (2) is that the line represents the limit of a surface in (1), and Olympic conditioning represents the limit of endurance in (2). In that case, you can rewrite (1) and (2) into:

    (1*) Line is the limit of a surface
    (2*) Olympic conditioning is the limit of endurance

    How is it not the case that there is a common genus, i.e. a limit or boundary?

    ReplyDelete
  165. dguller (and everyone else)

    Sorry to keep butting in

    The idea that analogy rests on analogates being partly the same and partly different just begs the question against the Thomist understanding of analogy. You understandably talk of cars and motorcycles as both vehicles and would insist that there is some univocal common meaning relating them to The Expendables as a vehicle for Sly Stallone et al.; it is here that your process seems to be a stupefying one, purposefully undetermining a known thing so it is less known but (so you would have it) possesses identical properties with something it is not.

    You are no longer abstracting away just accidents to arrive at an essential something but doing violence to your knowledge of that something in order to make it conform to a shape it won’t quite fit. For example: Olympic conditioning is not the limit of endurance. Prove otherwise, or take another stab at rewriting Sobieski’s example.

    To borrow the example common from the text-books: you are looking at a faraway object through a telescope, identifying it then, once it is known, purposefully dialling in an incorrect focus so it appears again as an indistinct blob. All so it appears identical to the next indistinct blob and preserves this dgullerist understanding of analogy!

    It just isn’t true that your partial logical identity between two analogates is a partial real identity. And when you’re comparing two real things surely it makes a difference that the logical identity your analysis supposes doesn’t exist really in either?

    ReplyDelete
  166. Jack:

    The idea that analogy rests on analogates being partly the same and partly different just begs the question against the Thomist understanding of analogy. You understandably talk of cars and motorcycles as both vehicles and would insist that there is some univocal common meaning relating them to The Expendables as a vehicle for Sly Stallone et al.; it is here that your process seems to be a stupefying one, purposefully undetermining a known thing so it is less known but (so you would have it) possesses identical properties with something it is not.

    I do so, because this is the only way that I can think of preserve similarity. There must be something in common between the analogates to establish the connection between them that allows the analogy to occur. It is the same idea behind the form in a material being being identical to the form in the intellect. It has to be the same, otherwise a connection is impossible, and without a connection, there is no knowledge. With analogy, unless there is a connection linking the analogates by virtue of the common property, attribute, quality, state, process, act, or whatever, then there is no analogy at all.

    My contention is that the Thomist use of analogy starts with this same definition of similarity, and then muddies the waters in such a way that new rules come to play whereby there is still a similarity, even though the original conditions of similarity have been violated. Again, this is like saying that a computer necessarily requires MS-DOS to run a program, and that even though it lacks MS-DOS, it can still run the program. This just makes no sense to me.

    You are no longer abstracting away just accidents to arrive at an essential something but doing violence to your knowledge of that something in order to make it conform to a shape it won’t quite fit. For example: Olympic conditioning is not the limit of endurance. Prove otherwise, or take another stab at rewriting Sobieski’s example.

    First, you are correct that I am not “abstracting away just accidents to arrive at an essential something”. The connection between two analogates need not be only by virtue of essential properties. It could be by virtue of accidental properties, as well.

    Second, can you explain what the connection is between Olympic conditioning and endurance? I just took a stab at it, and could be wrong. But it would be helpful if you could demonstrate where I went wrong in my analysis.

    To borrow the example common from the text-books: you are looking at a faraway object through a telescope, identifying it then, once it is known, purposefully dialling in an incorrect focus so it appears again as an indistinct blob. All so it appears identical to the next indistinct blob and preserves this dgullerist understanding of analogy!

    If the analogy depends upon the faraway object being an “indistinct blob” as the common something, then yes, I am adjusting the telescope until the faraway object looks as much an indistinct blob as the indistinct blob that I am making the comparison based upon. In other words, I start with something that I understand that has particular properties, attributes, states, modes, or whatever, and I am trying to understand something else that is far away. I assume that this far away something has common properties (or whatever) with the nearby something, and so I try to find them. Once I have found those common properties (or whatever), then I have a connection in reality between them, and thus can form an analogy between them.

    ReplyDelete
  167. Jack:

    It just isn’t true that your partial logical identity between two analogates is a partial real identity. And when you’re comparing two real things surely it makes a difference that the logical identity your analysis supposes doesn’t exist really in either?

    But then all analogy fails. Every thing is a unique thing, and if the only things that exist are whole substances, then how can you ever compare any substance to another substance? They are not divisible in reality into their properties, states, attributes, modes, and so on. These divisions only exist in our minds as conceptual divisions. Any analogy must be made on the basis of these properties, which cannot exist as real partial identities, and thus you only have partial identities in your mind, and not in reality. How can this be used to establish a connection to reality if it is all in our minds?

    ReplyDelete
  168. dguller

    But then all analogy fails. Every thing is a unique thing, and if the only things that exist are whole substances, then how can you ever compare any substance to another substance?

    But this is exactly the point. Real similarity is the ground for logical identity - you are unique, and Sobieski is unique, but you are both men. This is logical identity and in this way you are similar to Sobieski. Man is predicated univocally for you both, not analogically.

    But analogy is something else - is the idea of The Expendables as a vehicle for Sly Stallone equivocal with the idea of a gifted Harley Davidson being a vehicle for Sly Stallone? Not entirely, but it's certainly not univocal either.

    Short version: I don't think same = univocal, different = equivocal, and similar = analogical. Analogy is about relation between the analogates, not a univocally common property.

    ReplyDelete
  169. dguller

    Second, can you explain what the connection is between Olympic conditioning and endurance? I just took a stab at it, and could be wrong. But it would be helpful if you could demonstrate where I went wrong in my analysis.

    In answering Sobieski you analysed the terms and concluded: "How is it not the case that there is a common genus, i.e. a limit or boundary?"

    If Olympic conditioning is not a limit or boundary of endurance, there is no common genus. My point was that you seem able to find common properties to fit your scheme of analogy that actually aren't in the thing analysed.

    That's what makes your scheme possible in some cases.

    ReplyDelete
  170. Jack:

    But analogy is something else - is the idea of The Expendables as a vehicle for Sly Stallone equivocal with the idea of a gifted Harley Davidson being a vehicle for Sly Stallone? Not entirely, but it's certainly not univocal either.

    Look, this is not complicated.

    You are comparing X to Y. As far as I can tell, you can compare X to Y in three ways:

    (1) X is identical to Y, which means that X has everything in common with Y.
    (2) X is different from Y, which means that X has nothing in common with Y.
    (3) X is similar to Y, which means that X has something in common with Y.

    Those are the only options. Do you disagree with this analysis?

    When it comes to your analogy between the Expendables, which was a great movie, by the way, and a motorcycle by virtue of their both being vehicles for Stallone, then that most closely matches (3) above, which uses similarity. What they have in common is moving Stallone somewhere, the movie to box office success, and the motorcycle to a physical location.

    Short version: I don't think same = univocal, different = equivocal, and similar = analogical. Analogy is about relation between the analogates, not a univocally common property.

    First, show me how (1), (2), and (3) are not the only logical options when comparing X and Y.

    Second, what exactly is the “relation between the analogates”? And is the relation identical, similar, or different between them, since those are the only logical possibilities for the relation to take?

    If Olympic conditioning is not a limit or boundary of endurance, there is no common genus. My point was that you seem able to find common properties to fit your scheme of analogy that actually aren't in the thing analysed.

    So, boundaries and limits are not part of Olympic conditioning, endurance, lines and surfaces? It seems that it is.

    ReplyDelete
  171. Jack:

    Maybe the issue is that you are talking about genus and I am talking about sets. For me, a genus is a particular way to organize sets, but it is not necessarily the only way. For example, the set of all things that have limits or boundaries would be considered to be the genus, and then divided according to whether they are physical or immaterial, and so on.

    And why are Aristotle’s categories that sum all of classification? I can appreciate that we should begin with substances as the basic ontological units in existence, but as for what follows, there is some confusion, possibly just on my part.

    Quantity is a different genus from place, time and relation. However, quantitative measurements are part of all three of them. You can measure place by virtue of Cartesian coordinates. You can measure time according to points on a line. And you can measure relations, such as larger than and smaller than on the basis of quantitative measurements. So, how can they be their own independent genii and not subsumed under quantity. In fact, how do the different branches of the categorical tree interact with one another?

    ReplyDelete
  172. Dguller,

    I'm taking a pause from the regular thread because I'd rather analyze your statements instead of me simply repeating things.

    You are comparing X to Y. As far as I can tell, you can compare X to Y in three ways:

    (1) X is identical to Y, which means that X has everything in common with Y.
    (2) X is different from Y, which means that X has nothing in common with Y.
    (3) X is similar to Y, which means that X has something in common with Y.

    Those are the only options. Do you disagree with this analysis?


    This is curious to me; there seems to be some hidden assumptions involved. Is one just the principle of identity A=A? I don't see how this would hold between two real beings, unless you're limiting yourself to either existence or essence and not both.

    Secondly, I've been wondering now, given the last few examples you've put forth, how equivocation is even possible under your schema? If I'm analyzing 'bark' of a dog and a tree, a traditional example, we can see:

    bark(dog): loud, annoying utterance from body endowed with sensitive powers of species canis lupus.

    bark(tree): outer-most layer of body of vegetative life

    Or some such.

    Now, under your terms, what keeps me from saying bark is an analogical term instead of an equivocal one? Cause, the two things have something in common: I mean each "bark" is conditioned by a body; I could find a reduction that is common to the two.

    Just curious...

    ReplyDelete
  173. @dguller

    How is it not the case that there is a common genus, i.e. a limit or boundary?

    Extremity: "1. the extreme or terminal point, limit, or part of something. "

    Line is to surface as olympic condition is to endurance.

    In both cases, line and olympic condition are limits. A line is the limit of a surface or plane. As regards endurance, the pinnacle or limit of human endurance is to be conditioned at the level of, say, an olympic or professional athlete. Maybe a more felicitous example could be found, but nevertheless, the point is that we are dealing with a common notion in both relationships, which is "extremity."

    Extremity considered apart from its terms or with its terms implicit as merely "extremity" accounts for the commonality or partial sameness. Extremity, with its terms considered explicitly, viz., as "extremity of surface" (line) and "extremity of endurance" (olympic condition) account for the partial difference. Under this consideration, there is no common genus between line and olympic condition because there is no common genus between the categories of quantity and quality. A line is a continuous quantity. Olympic condition is a quality.

    That is Owens's point. The sameness and difference are manifested in one and the same notion, albeit under different considerations. With univocity, the sameness between two things like human and dog is on the part of one common notion, namely a genus such as "animal," whereas the difference is on the part of another notion, namely a specific difference like "rational." We don't have that in four-term analogy. If you want to say that "extremity" is a genus, then I ask you what are the species falling under that genus in this example?

    I agree with you that there is a commonality in four-term analogy, just not that there is a univocal commonality. Further, the sameness and difference is found in one notion and not two.

    ReplyDelete
  174. Josh:

    This is curious to me; there seems to be some hidden assumptions involved. Is one just the principle of identity A=A? I don't see how this would hold between two real beings, unless you're limiting yourself to either existence or essence and not both.

    (1) is the principle of identity, and yes it would never apply to two material existing beings (except maybe bosons), but regardless it is a legitimate principle for other things that may be identical, such as two humans having the identical form of animality.

    Now, under your terms, what keeps me from saying bark is an analogical term instead of an equivocal one? Cause, the two things have something in common: I mean each "bark" is conditioned by a body; I could find a reduction that is common to the two.

    That is a great point.

    I would say that equivocation would hold if you were focusing upon the point of difference, and ignoring the points of identity. So, the bark of a dog and the bark of a tree would be similar in that they both are produced by living things, and if that was your focal point, then you would talk about similarity. However, if the focus is upon bark as a sound and bark as a surface of a tree, then you can talk about equivocation. It would be a matter of focus and the point of the exercise. Remember, the point of analogy is to shine light upon something we do not know well based upon something that we do know well.

    Furthermore, it is true that everything that exists, by virtue of deriving its nature from God’s nature via the principle of proportionate causality, is similar to one another. However, within that web of similarity, there are aspects of each thing that are the same, and aspects that are different. When you are doing an analogy, you are focusing upon the same, while ignoring the different, and when you are equivocating, you are focusing upon the different, while ignoring the same.

    How’s that?

    ReplyDelete
  175. Sobieski:

    Under this consideration, there is no common genus between line and olympic condition because there is no common genus between the categories of quantity and quality. A line is a continuous quantity. Olympic condition is a quality.

    But if part of “Olympic condition” is quantitative variables, such as speed, time, height, distance, because one must have the ability to have higher numbers of those variables in order to be in Olympic condition. So, quality is infested by quantity.

    The sameness and difference are manifested in one and the same notion, albeit under different considerations.

    That is my point. Everything is similar in existence, but you can focus upon the parts that are identical and the parts that are different. It is all a matter of focus and perspective. However, when you focus upon the parts that are identical, then univocal meaning applies, because you are talking about the same thing that is common to both. And it is irrelevant that your mind inevitable includes aspects of difference when discussing the common thing, because that would compromise all abstract knowledge, which Aquinas would never allow.

    With univocity, the sameness between two things like human and dog is on the part of one common notion, namely a genus such as "animal," whereas the difference is on the part of another notion, namely a specific difference like "rational." We don't have that in four-term analogy. If you want to say that "extremity" is a genus, then I ask you what are the species falling under that genus in this example?

    The species are concrete entities (e.g. Olympic athletes) and abstract entities (e.g. mathematical figures).

    I agree with you that there is a commonality in four-term analogy, just not that there is a univocal commonality. Further, the sameness and difference is found in one notion and not two.

    But when one focuses upon the sameness in the one notion, then you are talking about something different than the one notion. You are talking about a part of that one notion, and thus have split it conceptually. When I am talking about a man, I inevitably am talking about a being with form and matter. When I am talking about that being’s form, I am talking about one notion, and not two.

    ReplyDelete
  176. @dguller

    But if part of "Olympic condition" is quantitative variables... So quality is infested with quantity.

    Assuming A-T logic and philosophy of nature for the sake of argument here, there are ten categories of being, which constitute the ultimate genera or modes of finite being: Substance, Quantity, Quality, Relation, Action, Passion, Place, Time, Position and Habit (in the sense of being shod, dressed or armed).

    A habit (in the qualitative sense) is a disposition of a power to act well or ill. A good habit is called a virtue (as opposed to a vice). Whether it be a virtue like science in the intellect or fortitude in sense appetite or strength conditioning in the body, it is a quality of a substance. I.e., a habit is not a substance or quantity, but a quality. Now any quality exists in a substance along with the substance's quantitative accidents, so that a quality might be susceptible to measurement or be manifested along with certain quantitative aspects is not to the point. That doesn't make said quality a quantity. So again, the quality of being in the condition of an olympic athlete is not the same as a continuous quantity like a line.

    However when you focus on the parts that are identical, then univocal meaning applies...

    I think we are equivocating on univocity. It seems to me you are saying that any likeness found in four-term analogy is ultimately reducible to some identical part, which you hold is a univocity. I disagree, however, because univocity entails a sameness in genus only. Quantity is an ultimate genus and quality is an ultimate genus. There is no common genus between the two categories. Therefore there can be no univocity of terms between the two.

    The species are concrete entities (e.g., Olympic athletes) and abstract entities (e.g., mathematical figures)

    Species are not concrete in the sense of individuated, but apart from that, the examples you've given are not in the same categories. An athlete (human) would be a substance, while a figure would be a quantity. Again for univocity, a species has to fall under a common genus in the same category, like two species in substance (e.g., human or canine) or two species in quantity (e.g., continuous or discrete).

    You are talking about a part of that one notion, and thus have split it conceptually.

    I don't think you can just assert "parts" and "splitting" being the same in each example. We have to articulate what this means. In A-T terms, a species is logically defined by a genus and a specific difference. So in a species, there are two notions, a genus (commonality) and a difference. So there is indeed a common "part" between human and dog, namely, animal. In the case of four-term analogy, however, there is no common part in the sense of a genus. The commonality and difference are found in one and the same notion, not two. Instead of resorting to the constituents of a logical definition, we have to resort to the implicit/explicit distinction to account for the sameness and difference.

    I don't think the matter/form in man example is to the point. Substance is constituted by the principles of prime matter and substantial form. Substance in turn is the matter ("second matter") for accidental form(s), which are found in the other nine categories. Substance exists in itself, whereas the other categories exist in substance. Extremity in my example is not a substance in either case, it is an accident in each case, a quantity and quality respectively. When we say "parts" as regards extremity in the example, then we mean line and olympic condition. But there is no common genus between these accidents.

    ReplyDelete
  177. P.S. Just a clarification. I misspoke earlier when I said figure is in the category of quantity. It is actually a quality per Oesterle in "Logic, the Art of Defining and Reasoning."

    Figure "is that type of quality which terminates the quantity of substance. Figure limits the quantity of substance to a particular shape, as spherical, circular, or triangular..." (p. 40)

    Nevertheless, line is a continuous quantity. "Continuous quantity is that whose parts are joined in some common term, as a line, surface, or solid." (p. 39)

    ReplyDelete
  178. Dguller,

    However, within that web of similarity, there are aspects of each thing that are the same, and aspects that are different. When you are doing an analogy, you are focusing upon the same, while ignoring the different, and when you are equivocating, you are focusing upon the different, while ignoring the same.

    I take some very curious conclusions from these statements. It sounds like you are literally saying that everything is identical, different, and similar in any given comparison given where our "focus" is. Surely that's absurd.

    I believe the problem is you think you can compare X to Y wrt a common term, and then use something less than the essential, complete meaning of the term in both X and Y for the basis of your comparison. It's the only way I can see to avoid the silliness of affirming all three comparisons as valid.

    For instance:

    The essential meaning of 'bark' wrt trees would include the genus and specific difference proper to trees, and the same would apply for dogs. Now tell me, given those essential, complete meanings, is the comparison univocal, equivocal, or analogical?

    The point is that it's not an arbitrary act of the mind which chooses a "focus," but rather the essences of things which form our words/meanings, and limit our proper predications.

    ReplyDelete
  179. Sobieski:

    Now any quality exists in a substance along with the substance's quantitative accidents, so that a quality might be susceptible to measurement or be manifested along with certain quantitative aspects is not to the point. That doesn't make said quality a quantity. So again, the quality of being in the condition of an olympic athlete is not the same as a continuous quantity like a line.

    I’m confused. Surprise, surprise. If a quality can have parts that are quantifiable, then are those parts under the genus of quantity? Is it possible for one genus to be partially under another genus? Does that even make sense?

    And can the categories be applied to themselves? I mean, there are ten categories, and thus they are under the genus of quantity. They are related to one another, and thus they are also under the genus of relation. They are defined as different aspects of being, and thus they are under the genus of quality. So, the categories are subsumed under the categories, which seems possibly circular to me.

    Finally, can Olympic conditioning even be understood without quantity? Olympic conditioning involves bodies in positions at times moving in lines upon surfaces and categorized by different numbers. It seems suffused with quantity. How can you explain Olympic conditioning without all these quantitative terms? It just doesn’t seem possible, and so I would argue that quantity is an essential feature of Olympic conditioning, irrespective of its placement in the genus of quality. And if the categorical framework prohibits this possibility, then so much the worse for that framework.

    I think we are equivocating on univocity. It seems to me you are saying that any likeness found in four-term analogy is ultimately reducible to some identical part, which you hold is a univocity. I disagree, however, because univocity entails a sameness in genus only. Quantity is an ultimate genus and quality is an ultimate genus. There is no common genus between the two categories. Therefore there can be no univocity of terms between the two.

    But if quantity is an essential part of all terms, then irrespective of their being placed in different genera, they can be understood by virtue of a shared quantitative structure. How would one explain the presence of quantitative concepts as essential to a quality? Again, how do the categories interconnect to one another, and how do those interrelationships affect its hierarchical structure of different genera and species that do not seem to mix, and yet must mix.

    Species are not concrete in the sense of individuated, but apart from that, the examples you've given are not in the same categories. An athlete (human) would be a substance, while a figure would be a quantity. Again for univocity, a species has to fall under a common genus in the same category, like two species in substance (e.g., human or canine) or two species in quantity (e.g., continuous or discrete).

    I think that I am starting to understand. Univocal meaning is only possible, according to Aquinas, if two things share a common genus. So, a dog and a human both share the common genus of animal, and thus “animal” can be predicated of both in a univocal fashion. However, a circle and a human being cannot both be “round”, because a circle is a quantity and a human being is a substance. Different genera. Oh wait. They both can be described as “round” in a univocal sense, even though they are in different genera!

    I’ll comment on the rest of your post later. And I’ll get to Josh’s, as well.

    ReplyDelete
  180. @dguller

    Where did I say a quality can have parts? I said quantity and quality exist together in substance. You will not find the qualitative accidents of a substance apart from the quantitative accidents of a substance in reality. The fact that quality or any other category is found with quantity in substance does not mean, however, that they are thus reducible to quantity conceptually.

    Your human/circle example is again not to the point. Roundness or circularity is a figure or quality (at least according to Oesterle). So you are saying a circle (continuous quantity) and a human (substance) are the same by virtue of the same quality. If you don't agree that circularity is a quality, then say quantity for the purpose of argument. It doesn't matter. So granting the comparison, they are the same by virtue of the same thing roundness, which would be univocity. The human is not round *as* substance. He is round like the circle by virtue of the same accident, viz., roundness.

    Here is another analogy:

    Man is to substance as line is to quantity.

    The common notion in each case is "type or instance of." Yet the types involved are substance and quantity. "Type" is the commonality, yet when the terms are made explicit, there is no common genus. A line exists in substance, whereas man exists in himself as a substance. The mode of being is not the same, so there is an analogical rather than a univocal likeness.

    ReplyDelete
  181. Sobieski:

    Your human/circle example is again not to the point. Roundness or circularity is a figure or quality (at least according to Oesterle). So you are saying a circle (continuous quantity) and a human (substance) are the same by virtue of the same quality. If you don't agree that circularity is a quality, then say quantity for the purpose of argument. It doesn't matter. So granting the comparison, they are the same by virtue of the same thing roundness, which would be univocity. The human is not round *as* substance. He is round like the circle by virtue of the same accident, viz., roundness.

    I see. So, if we are comparing two substances, X and Y, then univocality only happens if the common “something” falls under the same genus in both X and Y. So, if we are comparing “roundness”, then that counts as a quantity (for example) under both X and Y, and thus is univocal. If they do not fall under the same genus in the comparison, then they cannot, by definition, be “univocal”.

    Now, getting back to your example.

    First, Olympic conditioning is not a substance, but rather is a quality, say, of a substance, i.e. an athlete. However, as I mentioned, this quality cannot be understood without its quantitative aspects of bodies in positions at times moving in lines upon surfaces and categorized by different numbers. I really don’t think its possible to define it without them, but you are welcome to try. If that is the case, then under what genus does Olympic conditioning truly fall under? And if it does not fall under a single genus, then how does that impact the categorical framework?

    Second, a line could be a substance, i.e. a line drawn on paper, which has quantitative properties, but it could also be an abstract universal of quantity, which is not a substance at all. Given that, when we compare Olympic conditioning with respect to its quantitative property of reaching a limit and a line with respect to its reaching a limit at the surface of a shape, I fail to see how this does not fall under the same genus, and thus become univocal. You would have to assume that either:

    (1) Olympic conditioning only falls under a single genus, i.e. quality, but then you have to explain it exclusively in qualitative terms without any mention of bodies in positions at times moving in lines upon surfaces and categorized by different numbers, which I put to you is impossible.
    (2) Olympic conditioning falls under two genera, i.e. quality and quantity, and univocality during a comparison with geometric figures is possible when focusing upon its quantitative aspects.
    (3) Olympic conditioning falls under a quality, but that quantity is a species of the genus quality in this case, primarily because there is simply no way to understand Olympic conditioning without reference to quantity, as in (1) above. I don’t know whether this is even possible in the categorical framework, and so one would have to question whether a framework works when what is necessary is also impossible.

    Any thoughts?

    ReplyDelete
  182. Josh:

    I take some very curious conclusions from these statements. It sounds like you are literally saying that everything is identical, different, and similar in any given comparison given where our "focus" is. Surely that's absurd.

    That is exactly what I am saying. Everything that exists is similar to everything else that exists, because they all share “something” in common, but are not identical, because of their differences. One can focus upon the whole substances, or their same properties, or their different properties, but it is just a matter of perspective and focus.

    I believe the problem is you think you can compare X to Y wrt a common term, and then use something less than the essential, complete meaning of the term in both X and Y for the basis of your comparison. It's the only way I can see to avoid the silliness of affirming all three comparisons as valid.

    First, I don’t think they are absurd at all. There is no contradiction involved in saying that everything is similar to everything else in some way.

    Second, by reason, there must be a point of identity between two things being compared, because otherwise, the comparison is impossible as there is an unbridgeable gap between them. A connection must be established. The question is about this connection. My contention is that when we are talking about the connection, i.e. the same “something” that is common between both things being compared, then we can have univocal meaning, even if we have abstracted away all the differences between the two things and only have the same “something” left. This may be impossible to fully conceive, given our conceptual limitations, but so what? Aquinas would not say that everything true is fully conceivable by human beings, and that if reason establishes that something is so, but we have a hard time imagining it, then nothing absurd follows.

    The essential meaning of 'bark' wrt trees would include the genus and specific difference proper to trees, and the same would apply for dogs. Now tell me, given those essential, complete meanings, is the comparison univocal, equivocal, or analogical?

    If you are focusing upon bark as a sound and bark as the skin of a tree, then it is equivocal. If you are focusing upon bark as something produced by a living thing and bark as something produced by a living thing, then they are analogous, and when you are just talking about something produced by a living thing, then they are univocal.

    The point is that it's not an arbitrary act of the mind which chooses a "focus," but rather the essences of things which form our words/meanings, and limit our proper predications.

    The relationships and connections are real, but we can focus upon different aspects of those connections. For example, I can focus upon a forest while ignoring the individual trees, or I can focus upon the individual tree while ignoring the forest. The reality is that they exist as a totality, but we can focus upon different aspects of that totality.

    ReplyDelete
  183. Oh, and just so you guys know, I’m done with my Spinoza reading, and have finally gotten back to my Aquinas books. Starting with Brian Davies’ The Thought of Thomas Aquinas now. Hopefully, this will help me understand your objections better.

    ReplyDelete
  184. @dguller

    I think univocity entails that what is being said of two things is said in the same way and with the same meaning. In the case of human and dog, it would be, say, the genus animal. Animal is something in the same category as substance and would be part of the essence and definition of the two things. It's different with accidents as they are not part of the essence, but nevertheless in the example you provided what was being said of two things was the same species of accident, predicated in the same way.

    With four-term analogy, the similarity is not in predication, but in the commonality between a set of relationships. One relationship can be in the category of substance and another in a different category. Maybe they can be in the same category as: point is to line as line is to plane. In each case we have a limit, but the limit is not univocally the same. One is a point and one is a line. A line is divisible in one dimension, whereas a point is indivisible. But they are both limits. That example is less clear to me, but Owens offers it as well. Regardless, generally speaking we see a likeness in those relationships, but the likeness in each case is different when we consider the terms explicitly. Analogy of attribution is more like univocal predication, except that the similarity is not univocal. The predication is always with reference to a primary instance, say, substance. In the case of God and creatures, we say the perfections exist in a different, higher and simple way as opposed to the limited, finite and diverse ways they exist in creatures. It seems to me like we agreed on the latter type of analogy, which is St. Thomas's definitive account per Wippel.

    In any event, as regards Olympic conditioning I would say it is something akin to a virtue or good habit disposing the Olympian's body to perform well at his given sport or activity. I am not sure whether physical conditioning would, strictly speaking, be a virtue in A-T terms, but certainly one has to train one's mind and body to perform at such a high level. That description is strictly speaking not quantitative. It is a habit, which is a species of quality. I don't deny that there are quantitative aspects associated with such a condition, but is the disposition purely reducible to measurement or quantity? I don't think so. But it seems to me this gets into the whole debate about whether qualities like "red" really exist in things or whether said realities are merely mental and in reality explainable in terms of waves, particles, etc. We are discussing analogy, however, not debating reductionism. That gets us off track, but ultimately I think there is more involved than mere quantity when we talk about habits. For example, a virtue like science in the mind (vs. the body) would seem to me to be something less susceptible to quantification, but ultimately some will want to reduce it to the brain. Since we are discussing four-term analogy, however, I offered another more straightforward and primitive example between relationships in the categories of substance and quantity.

    (continued...)

    ReplyDelete
  185. As regards lines, it seems to me that ultimately in the order of being any quantitative reality is something existing in substance, even though we might be able to focus on quantitative aspects for the purposes of mathematics. On the A-T account, an accident like quantity has to exist in a substance because accidents don't exist on their own. So any sort of mathematical abstraction would seem to necessarily to presuppose substance. A line, however, is not a substance. It exists as a feature of a substance, say, a linear thing, which in reality would be a 3-dimensional body. I think a line would be defined something like a continuum (or continuous quantity) divisible in one-dimension and be the term of a plane. A plane would be a continuum divisible in two-dimensions (e.g., triangle) and be the term of a solid. A solid would be a continuum divisible in three dimensions (e.g., sphere). Oesterle says that features like weight, figure, form and structure are actually qualities. So a continuous quantity like triangle has the shape of triangularity. Figure and form are limits and perfections of quantity. So it would seem mathematics in some ways entails quality, though St. Thomas says the mind can abstract to the level of quantity. I would need to do some more research to sort this out exactly. Anyway if this is true, it seems to me that quantity does not account for structure or order in the organism, that would actually be a perfection falling under quality. As quantity is formal to substance, so quality is formal to quantity. I think that is what I was trying to get at earlier when I said quality will always be found in substance with quantity, i.e., as its relative "matter." While quantity is more fundamental, quality is not purely reducible to it. In fact, it is a perfection of quantity. So without trying to hash out all the details, a qualitative habit like Olympic conditioning would dispose the body, say, and be formal with respect to certain of its more fundamental quantitative and substantial realities, realities which themselves may be susceptible to quantification and measurement in various ways. Conceptually speaking, however, I don't see why this means quantity is ultimately reducible to quantity or that it means such a quality has to be trans-categorical or that the various accidental aspects of a being can't be analyzed into distinct categories. So I would say that in your description (1) is the true account given what I've said, whereas on A-T terms (2) and (3) are nonsense. If you disagree, then I would say you are just reducing the other categories to quantity, and that you have a fundamental disagreement with Aristotle's analysis of the modes of being. It seems to me that this view is that the whole is ultimately reducible to its parts (i.e., reductionism). This is the whole debate Dr. Feser is writing about: an ancient/medieval qualitative view of reality vs. the modern mechanistic, reductionist and materialist view of reality. The former does not necessarily exclude the latter; it just says it's not the whole picture. My purpose wasn't to get into that debate, though, as the recent discussion has been about four-term analogy.

    ReplyDelete
  186. @dguller

    Starting with Brian Davies’ The Thought of Thomas Aquinas now. Hopefully, this will help me understand your objections better.

    Honestly, your best bet would be to start with St. Thomas himself. A few reliable secondary sources might be of assistance as regards a kick start and terminology. I am skeptical as regards Analytic philosophers, though, since as Dr. Feser notes some of them are Analytics interested in St. Thomas rather than Thomists.

    In any event, St. Thomas's order of study is logic, mathematics, philosophy of nature, ethics and metaphysics. Here would be some of my recommendations to start:

    Logic
    Logic, the Art of Defining and Reasoning by John Oesterle
    The Elements of Logic by Vincent Smith
    "The Division and Methods of the Sciences" in the De Trinitate commentary by St. Thomas

    Philosophy of Nature
    The General Science of Nature by Vincent Smith
    The Modeling of Nature by William Wallace
    On the Principles of Nature by St. Thomas

    Human Nature
    The Modeling of Nature by William Wallace
    Philosophy of Human Nature by George Klubertanz
    "The Treatise on Man" in the Summa Theologiae, pt. I by St. Thomas

    Ethics
    Ethics by John Oesterle
    The Second Part of the ST by St. Thomas

    Metaphysics
    The Metaphysical Thought of Thomas Aquinas by John Wippel
    An Elementary Christian Metaphysics by Joseph Owens
    On Being and Essence by St. Thomas

    Dr. Feser also has a nice introduction (probably the best IMO) to St. Thomas called Aquinas.

    ReplyDelete
  187. With four-term analogy, the similarity is not in predication, but in the commonality between a set of relationships. One relationship can be in the category of substance and another in a different category. Maybe they can be in the same category as: point is to line as line is to plane. In each case we have a limit, but the limit is not univocally the same. One is a point and one is a line. A line is divisible in one dimension, whereas a point is indivisible. But they are both limits. That example is less clear to me, but Owens offers it as well.

    First, whether the similarity relation is part of a predicate or between a set of relationships, there has to be something common that is shared by all compared terms. The question is whether you can ever talk about this something independent of the compared terms. We may not be able to do so, because our cognitive apparatus simply is unable to conceive of this something without the compared terms, or because we simply have not assigned a word to this something yet, and thus the problem is just linguistic.

    Second, limit is parasitic upon barrier, as in a barrier sets a limit, and there are physical barriers and non-physical barriers (e.g. metaphysical and logical restrictions of what is possible). I have argued above that barrier should be primary to all categories, because there is substance, and then the other categories that exist within that substance, which implies a barrier between an inside and an outside of the substance. You cannot understand the categories without this fundamental concept. My claim is that this concept has a definitive sense, which is identical in all forms of barriers, even if this sense is abstract and stripped of its empirical connections. After all, that is just what abstraction does.

    Regardless, generally speaking we see a likeness in those relationships, but the likeness in each case is different when we consider the terms explicitly.

    But is that a metaphysical principle or just a quirk of human psychology? In other words, are you saying that when we are thinking about something identical between two compared things, then we are simply unable to conceive of that identity without bringing the differences to mind? And is that because in reality there is no identity, but only identity-difference? Or is it just because our minds are so constructed as to generate associations that are inevitable? It is like trying not to think about a pink elephant. You are thinking about a pink elephant while you are trying not to think about it.

    Again, I fail to see the sense in saying that there must be something identical, by virtue of reason, between two similar things, but we have no idea what that “something identical” is, because we just cannot think about it at all.

    Analogy of attribution is more like univocal predication, except that the similarity is not univocal. The predication is always with reference to a primary instance, say, substance.

    That’s exactly my issue. When you say that the “predication is always with reference to a primary instance”, I understand that as a necessary association in the mind, much like thinking about triangularity necessary causes a mental image of a particular triangle in the mind, even though that particular triangle is not the universal triangle. Despite that fact, we can still coherently talk about the universal having a determinate and clear meaning, despite its mental associations with particulars.

    In the case of God and creatures, we say the perfections exist in a different, higher and simple way as opposed to the limited, finite and diverse ways they exist in creatures. It seems to me like we agreed on the latter type of analogy, which is St. Thomas's definitive account per Wippel

    I think so.

    ReplyDelete
  188. In any event, as regards Olympic conditioning I would say it is something akin to a virtue or good habit disposing the Olympian's body to perform well at his given sport or activity. I am not sure whether physical conditioning would, strictly speaking, be a virtue in A-T terms, but certainly one has to train one's mind and body to perform at such a high level. That description is strictly speaking not quantitative. It is a habit, which is a species of quality. I don't deny that there are quantitative aspects associated with such a condition, but is the disposition purely reducible to measurement or quantity? I don't think so. But it seems to me this gets into the whole debate about whether qualities like "red" really exist in things or whether said realities are merely mental and in reality explainable in terms of waves, particles, etc. We are discussing analogy, however, not debating reductionism. That gets us off track, but ultimately I think there is more involved than mere quantity when we talk about habits. For example, a virtue like science in the mind (vs. the body) would seem to me to be something less susceptible to quantification, but ultimately some will want to reduce it to the brain. Since we are discussing four-term analogy, however, I offered another more straightforward and primitive example between relationships in the categories of substance and quantity.

    I am fine with most of this.

    I would only say that Olympic conditioning is not just to “perform well”, but rather to perform as close to perfection as humanly possible in some physical activity. It approaches the limit of human perfection, and thus is intrinsically bound with the notion of a “boundary”. Furthermore, Olympic conditioning involves bodies in positions at times moving in lines upon surfaces and categorized by different numbers, which are all under the category of quantity. Again, this is a matter of different categories being codependent upon one another, and an idea that simply cannot be incorporated under a single genus.

    Oesterle says that features like weight, figure, form and structure are actually qualities. So a continuous quantity like triangle has the shape of triangularity. Figure and form are limits and perfections of quantity. So it would seem mathematics in some ways entails quality, though St. Thomas says the mind can abstract to the level of quantity. I would need to do some more research to sort this out exactly.

    Fair enough. But I think it is a problem when something cannot be subsumed under a particular genus, and necessarily has categories utterly dependent upon one another to explicate something.

    Anyway if this is true, it seems to me that quantity does not account for structure or order in the organism, that would actually be a perfection falling under quality. As quantity is formal to substance, so quality is formal to quantity. I think that is what I was trying to get at earlier when I said quality will always be found in substance with quantity, i.e., as its relative "matter." While quantity is more fundamental, quality is not purely reducible to it.

    I understand this to be that what exists may be quantifiable to a large extent, but that quantification will inevitably leave out other real aspects that are simply not quantifiable at all. So, I agree that “quality is not purely reducible to” quantity.

    ReplyDelete
  189. I don't see why this means quantity is ultimately reducible to quantity or that it means such a quality has to be trans-categorical or that the various accidental aspects of a being can't be analyzed into distinct categories. So I would say that in your description (1) is the true account given what I've said, whereas on A-T terms (2) and (3) are nonsense.

    Thank you for that.

    Just to clarify, I don’t think that quality or quantity are ultimately reducible to one another. I just mean that in some cases, such as with Olympic conditioning, quality depends upon quantity to have any degree of sense. As mentioned above, Olympic conditioning is necessarily related to Olympic activity, which is bodies in positions at times moving in lines upon surfaces and categorized by different numbers, which are all under the category of quantity. My contention is that you cannot under Olympic conditioning without these quantitative concepts, unless I am just misunderstanding what is meant by “body”, “position”, “time”, “lines”, “surfaces” and “numbers” under the genus of quantity. I don’t think that I am, and if so, then any definition of Olympic conditioning that does not use these concepts will fail to explicate what Olympic conditioning even is.

    So, dependence does not necessarily imply reduction.

    ReplyDelete
  190. Dguller,

    There is no contradiction involved in saying that everything is similar to everything else in some way.

    Granted, because that's pretty much what the analogy of being is all about. It's clear to me that our dispute is completely over the meaning of univocal, equivocal, and analogical in the use of terms.

    If you are focusing upon bark as a sound and bark as the skin of a tree, then it is equivocal. If you are focusing upon bark as something produced by a living thing and bark as something produced by a living thing, then they are analogous, and when you are just talking about something produced by a living thing, then they are univocal.

    The old wizened schoolmaster stood before the class, casting a critical eye on each boy in turn.

    "Dguller!" The tiny, bespectacled child snapped up.

    "Yes, sir?"

    "Kindly tell me," he said with a smile, "what the word 'bark' means when we say it of a tree, and when we say it of a dog, and whether they are the same or different."

    "Well..." Dguller thought long and hard. Metaphysics had been a particular stumbling block in his Thomistic education, and he again felt hopeless knowing that end of term was still six weeks away. Then the bolt struck.

    "'Something' sir!"

    "Yes, 'something' what?"

    "That's it, sir, just 'something.' The word 'bark' means 'something' in both cases, and so it means the same thing." For a long moment, the master stood suspended, looking at the ceiling, without the faintest notion in his head as to what his next utterance should be. Dguller beamed victoriously, the strength of a thousand long-dead sophists in spiritu gathered as witness.

    --------------------

    ReplyDelete
  191. All levity aside, though, if the meaning of a term is relative to the subject it's predicated of, I don't see how this all works out.

    If bark of a dog
    and
    Bark of a tree

    Have their complete, contextual meanings, we immediately recognize the predicate as an equivocal term. If I'm allowed to interchange "something produced by a living thing" for "bark" in the same context:

    Something produced by a living thing of a tree

    Something produced by a living thing of a dog

    This could be a whole host of things, and it doesn't give us license to tie the word "bark" to each thing anymore, over any other predicate that "fits" the meaning.

    ReplyDelete
  192. ...there has to be something common that is shared by all compared terms...

    Again, I fail to see the sense in saying that there must be something identical, by virtue of reason, between two similar things, but we have no idea what that “something identical” is, because we just cannot think about it at all.

    It seems to me the similarity in four term analogy is in the respective relations.

    Man is to substance as line is to quantity.

    In this analogy, the common note is "type," but it is not the same "type" in each relation. In one relation, it is a substance and in another a quantity. If we say "type," that is one and the same thing. If we say type of "substance" or "quantity," then the types in each case are not univocally the same. The sameness and difference are not the same and different in the same respect, only through different considerations of the mind (i.e., by the explicit/implicit distinction). I don't know that I have much more to offer on the subject. Maybe analogy, like univocity and equivocity, is just a fundamental capability of the human intellect.

    Second, limit is parasitic upon barrier, as in a barrier sets a limit, and there are physical barriers and non-physical barriers (e.g. metaphysical and logical restrictions of what is possible). I have argued above that barrier should be primary to all categories, because there is substance, and then the other categories that exist within that substance, which implies a barrier between an inside and an outside of the substance. You cannot understand the categories without this fundamental concept. My claim is that this concept has a definitive sense, which is identical in all forms of barriers, even if this sense is abstract and stripped of its empirical connections. After all, that is just what abstraction does.

    I'm not sure I completely understand what you are saying. I understand a limit being the terminus of a continuum (whether one, two or three-dimensional) and in that sense being found with a continuum. But that would seem to primarily apply to continuous quantity. Barrier in my mind is primarily a substance or artifact, like a wall. Maybe I'm being too obtuse.

    Maybe you want to say there is a univocal commonality of description between categories. I think is true. They are all formal, finite and modes, etc. But considered as modes *of being*, they are ultimately analogously similar with substance being the primary referent.

    ReplyDelete
  193. In terms of "inside or outside" substance, I think we have to be careful of understanding matter and form as principles of substance and not as things in their own right. They are not "in" substance like a container, but "in" as that from which substance comes to be or exists. They don't exist apart from substance, even though we can analyze substance into its constituent principles (e.g., matter, form, esse). The further categorical accidents are related to substance as form to matter ("second matter").

    Thank you for that.

    Just to clarify, I don’t think that quality or quantity are ultimately reducible to one another. I just mean that in some cases, such as with Olympic conditioning, quality depends upon quantity to have any degree of sense. As mentioned above, Olympic conditioning is necessarily related to Olympic activity, which is bodies in positions at times moving in lines upon surfaces and categorized by different numbers, which are all under the category of quantity. My contention is that you cannot under Olympic conditioning without these quantitative concepts, unless I am just misunderstanding what is meant by “body”, “position”, “time”, “lines”, “surfaces” and “numbers” under the genus of quantity. I don’t think that I am, and if so, then any definition of Olympic conditioning that does not use these concepts will fail to explicate what Olympic conditioning even is.


    You're welcome, but just to clarify, I meant the Olympic conditioning like any other virtue is a quality and not that it is impossible for it be in a single genus. Regardless, I don't think we are really disagreeing here.

    I think most qualities are dependent on quantity, which is material in respect to it. Color and other sense qualities require a surface. Powers and habits are associated or located with organs (excepting purely spiritual powers like the will and intellect, which are nonetheless dependent on the lower powers). Figure and form obviously require quantity if they are the limits and perfections of it. Qualities perfect (e.g., structure) the quantitative aspects. Let's say the state of a couch potato and the physically fit both entail the items you mention -- the organization or disposition is obviously different, though we could be speaking about the same things quantitatively.

    In any event, we seem to be in agreement in many respects, except four-term analogy. Thomism isn't monolithic in every respect, however, and that is a somewhat disputed area as regards names of God. I just thought Owens had an interesting and potentially useful way of explaining it.

    ReplyDelete
  194. Josh:

    This could be a whole host of things, and it doesn't give us license to tie the word "bark" to each thing anymore, over any other predicate that "fits" the meaning.

    Let’s break this down a bit.

    (1) “X” refers to A, which has properties P1, P2, P3
    (2) “X” refers to B, which has properties P1, P4, P5

    Now, although in both (1) and (2), the word for A and B is “X”, “X” actually refers to different things, i.e. A and B. However, A and B both share a common property P1, whereas they differ with respect to P2 and P3 in A and P4 and P5 in B.

    I see something similar in your examples:

    (1*) “Bark” refers to the oral sound a dog makes
    (2*) “Bark” refers to the surface of a tree

    Now, “bark” in both (1*) and (2*) are produced by living beings, and thus share that in common, but they also differ in that “bark” in (1*) is made by an animal, and “bark” in (2*) is made by a plant. So, it makes no sense to substitute a single property as if it was the definitive one that fully describes the essence of “bark” in both (1*) and (2*).

    So, I fail to see your objection here. “Bark” in (1*) and (2*) is not coextensive, because it refers to different things, but these different things share some properties in common, and thus a similarity relation can be applied to them when focusing upon their common properties, and an equivocal relationship can be applied when focusing upon their different senses and referents, despite the fact that they share some properties in common. I don’t think that this is particularly controversial or paradoxical.

    And remember, “X” is just the word that we use to describe something. It has no inherent and intrinsic intentionality. It is a random decision to use a sound and mark to refer to something else. Just because “bark” is used to describe both the skin of trees and the sound of dogs does not mean that they are the same thing. They aren’t. You can clearly see that they are different when they are being used, despite the fact that they share properties in common and have different properties.

    And in your dialogue above, you failed to mention the third option, i.e. similarity!

    ReplyDelete
  195. I begin to see another distinction that needs to be made: logicians consider only the intention of a term, while metaphysicians must consider things in their actual being; what leads to the former to predicate something univocally, like body of corporeity, will lead the latter to predicate analogically, as corporeity does not exist in the same modes across the corruptible and incorruptible.

    (1) “X” refers to A, which has properties P1, P2, P3
    (2) “X” refers to B, which has properties P1, P4, P5

    So, it makes no sense to substitute a single property as if it was the definitive one that fully describes the essence of “bark” in both (1*) and (2*).


    My point is, that there is a single property in each tree and dog that corresponds to the predicate bark, and the complete definition of the word/property/essence/concept is different in comparison.

    Contrast this with a real univocal predication, where the term animality does show a complete definition:

    "animality" refers to Man, which has P1, P2, P3

    "animality" refers to Dog, which has P1, P4, P5

    Where P1 is the complete concept/act of animality, body endowed with sensitive powers.

    They of course share in the property of being bodies, but if you prescind "endowed with sensitive powers" from the concept, that doesn't thereby mean there's a univocal predication of "animality," but only "body"!

    ReplyDelete
  196. Sobieski:

    In this analogy, the common note is "type," but it is not the same "type" in each relation. In one relation, it is a substance and in another a quantity. If we say "type," that is one and the same thing. If we say type of "substance" or "quantity," then the types in each case are not univocally the same. The sameness and difference are not the same and different in the same respect, only through different considerations of the mind (i.e., by the explicit/implicit distinction). I don't know that I have much more to offer on the subject. Maybe analogy, like univocity and equivocity, is just a fundamental capability of the human intellect.

    I agree with most of this.

    Man is a type of substance, and a line is a type of quantity. So, the common relationship is that X is a type of Y. For me, this also comes down to parts. In other words, Y is part of what counts as X, or in the totality of things that are X, some of them are Y. Or, all Y’s are X’s, but not all X’s are Y’s. Again, this is perfectly clear to anyone, irrespective of whether X and Y are substances, qualities, quantities, or whatever. Sure, the kind of type, i.e. substantial versus quantitative, differs, but that they share the common underlying structure that grounds the relationship remains the same.

    I really think that the primitives here are “all”, “some”, and “none”, which then get you to “same” (or “identical”, “equal”), “similar” and “different” by virtue of how many properties, attributes, qualities, modes, acts, or whatever, they have in common, and that “analogy” is essentially “similarity”, i.e. partial identity, and partial difference. So, you cannot have analogy without presupposing “identity”, “difference” and “parts”. Otherwise, it makes no sense, and thus even if it were a “fundamental capability of the human intellect”, it is only by virtue of the human intellect’s power to identify partial identity and partial difference when comparing things to one another.

    I'm not sure I completely understand what you are saying. I understand a limit being the terminus of a continuum (whether one, two or three-dimensional) and in that sense being found with a continuum. But that would seem to primarily apply to continuous quantity. Barrier in my mind is primarily a substance or artifact, like a wall. Maybe I'm being too obtuse.

    Maybe we are both operating upon narrow interpretations of “limit”. For me, it implies a barrier beyond which one cannot go. That barrier can be physical (e.g. a wall), psychological (e.g. a rule that if violated would result in punishment), metaphysical (e.g. nothing logically contradictory can exist), and so on. In other words, one is stopped in whatever activity one is engaging in. With regards to a continuous quantity, such as a line, the limit would be where the points stop. That is the barrier.

    Maybe you want to say there is a univocal commonality of description between categories. I think is true. They are all formal, finite and modes, etc. But considered as modes *of being*, they are ultimately analogously similar with substance being the primary referent.

    Can you elaborate? I don’t understand.

    In terms of "inside or outside" substance, I think we have to be careful of understanding matter and form as principles of substance and not as things in their own right.

    I agree, but it is sometimes difficult not to assign some degree of being to them, which I think is necessary anyway. I mean, they may not be things in the sense of substances, which are the primary units of ontology, but they are certainly not nothing at all, because the same form in a material being can be present in an intellect, and you cannot have the same nothing, but only the same something.

    ReplyDelete
  197. Sobieski:

    They are not "in" substance like a container, but "in" as that from which substance comes to be or exists. They don't exist apart from substance, even though we can analyze substance into its constituent principles (e.g., matter, form, esse). The further categorical accidents are related to substance as form to matter ("second matter").

    It’s here that I think our words and concepts just break down entirely. The matter that composes a substance is located in a particular region of space-time, and its configuration, or form, is also within that location. After all, its organization cannot be outside of itself. The question is how to understand the “inside” a substance. However, it is not “inside” in the sense of a physical part that can be removed as a component of the substance. And I’m not too sure if your explanation works either, because by that reasoning, God is also in a substance, much like form and matter, because he is “that from which substance comes to be or exists”. So, I don’t think that we can say anything about it, other than it is not physically outside a substance, and is not a physical component, but what it is is just beyond our comprehension. It is kind of like negative theology.

    In any event, we seem to be in agreement in many respects, except four-term analogy. Thomism isn't monolithic in every respect, however, and that is a somewhat disputed area as regards names of God. I just thought Owens had an interesting and potentially useful way of explaining it.

    Thanks for your points. They have been helpful, especially your reading list. I have some of the works there, and might get around to the others in time, but you are right that I should read Aquinas directly. Any anthologies that you would recommend as a good starting point? And this question is open to anyone.

    ReplyDelete
  198. Josh:

    I begin to see another distinction that needs to be made: logicians consider only the intention of a term, while metaphysicians must consider things in their actual being; what leads to the former to predicate something univocally, like body of corporeity, will lead the latter to predicate analogically, as corporeity does not exist in the same modes across the corruptible and incorruptible.

    Okay.

    My point is, that there is a single property in each tree and dog that corresponds to the predicate bark, and the complete definition of the word/property/essence/concept is different in comparison.

    Of course the complete definition is different, because they are different things! However, that does not mean that they do not share identical properties (or whatever). As you mentioned, at the very least, they share the property of being possible, of existing, of being created by God, or something along those lines. That does not mean that they are the same thing. Far from it. However, it means that even though they end up far apart as individual substances, they still come from a common root, and when we talk about that common root, we can speak univocally, I think.

    They of course share in the property of being bodies, but if you prescind "endowed with sensitive powers" from the concept, that doesn't thereby mean there's a univocal predication of "animality," but only "body"!

    Right, but then the similarity would have to focus upon “body” rather than animality, and that would have to be the basis of the analogy. Again, it depends upon your perspective and what commonalities you wish to emphasize by utilizing the analogy to begin with. There are often many to choose from, but one in particular is being isolated and examined.

    ReplyDelete
  199. Josh:

    And one more thing.

    Just because two things have something in common in an analogy does not necessarily make it a good analogy. The commonality should be close enough to the surface meaning that it is comprehendible by an intellect. In other words, you could say that a leaf is like an atom in that they both have components, but that requires too much digging, so to speak. There are better comparisons out there that are more intuitively obvious. And the more you have to dig to find something in common, the less interesting the comparison.

    ReplyDelete
  200. Dguller,

    I find us in almost complete agreement on your last comments, so let's cut to the chase.

    However, it means that even though they end up far apart as individual substances, they still come from a common root, and when we talk about that common root, we can speak univocally, I think.

    I'll try to tease out why I think we are possibly only apparently in disagreement. I'm relying on McInerny's insights on the conflict between Scotus and Aquinas on this point.

    The way he understands it, Aquinas defends the meaning of a term being composed of a thing signified and a mode of how it's signified. And this is irreducible in his estimation. Scotus believed you could retain meaning even without including the mode of signification.

    Given each theory of meaning, you can see why Aquinas would say being is not univocal, and why Scotus would say it is. Both agreed that there was something common in the meaning of being, the thing signified: an act of existence. So for Scotus, given his term minus mode, this constitutes an identity relationship in every predication. For Aquinas, given his term composition, it must be classed as analogical, even though the same thing (act of existence) is signified in each predication.

    I think that this is the source of the conflict. The real question is, can we leave the mode out of predication, and still maintain the meaning of a term? I think the test of this is to predicate Being of both Substance and Accident according to both Scotus and Aquinas' understanding of the term.

    ReplyDelete