Thursday, July 5, 2012

Atheistic teleology?

There has been a lot of talk in the blogosphere and elsewhere about former atheist blogger Leah Libresco’s recent conversion to Catholicism.  It seems that among the reasons for her conversion is the conviction that the possibility of objective moral truth presupposes that there is teleology in the natural order, ends toward which things are naturally directed.  That there is such teleology is a thesis traditionally defended by Catholic philosophers, and this is evidently one of the things that attracted Libresco to Catholicism.  A reader calls my attention to this post by atheist philosopher and blogger Daniel Fincke.  Fincke takes issue with those among his fellow atheists willing to concede to Libresco that an atheist has to reject teleology.  Like Libresco, he would ground morality in teleology, but he denies that teleology requires a theological foundation.

Atheism, teleology, and morality

Fincke writes:

Teleology should not be at all out of bounds for atheists.  Teleologists do not need to posit that there is an intelligent goal-giver who gives natural beings purposes to fulfill, as many theists think…

I am an atheistic virtue ethicist requiring no divine agency for the teleological dimensions of my ethics to make minimal sense and have minimal coherence.  I am just describing purely naturalistically occurring patterns as universals or forms.  I am saying that since humans’ very natures are constituted by a specific set of powers, fulfilling them is incumbent on humans as the beings that we are.  It is irrational and a practical contradiction to destroy the very precondition of our own being (all things being equal).  We have a rational imperative instead to flourish maximally powerfully according to the powers which constitute us ourselves.

Now there is some truth in what Fincke says, but it is not the whole truth and his account suffers from some systematic ambiguities.  On the one hand, I would agree that the teleological properties of natural substances, including human beings, can in principle be known whether or not one believes in God, precisely because they are natural.  That is what makes natural law possible.  You can know just by studying trees that their roots have among their natural ends the taking in of water and nutrients, and that it is objectively good for a tree that its roots carry out this function and bad for it if for some reason the roots are unable to do so.  You don’t need to make reference to God to see this.  By the same token, you can know just by studying human beings that it is objectively good for them to pursue truth, to show courage and resolution in the face of difficulties, to exercise self control in the indulgence of their appetites, and so forth, since without such virtues they would be unable to fulfill the ends of their various natural capacities.  No special reference to God is needed in order to see this either.  Not only do I agree with Fincke about that much, but I have made a similar point at length in a post from almost a year ago.  It is in my view a mistake for religious apologists to think they can go directly from the objectivity of morality to the existence of God.  

(For an overview of the Aristotelian-Thomistic approach to natural law ethics, see chapter 5 of Aquinas, chapter 4 of The Last Superstition, and roughly the first half of my Social Philosophy and Policy article “Classical Natural Law Theory, Property Rights, and Taxation.”)  

However, that is only part of the story, for three reasons.  First, all of this is true on an Aristotelian construal of the natural world, but it is not true on the conception of the natural world one finds in contemporary scientism and naturalism -- a conception to which most modern atheists are committed.  In particular, no construal of teleology consistent with modern naturalism and scientism can give you the kind of teleology necessary for objective morality.  More on this in a moment.

Second, while objective morality depends directly on an Aristotelian philosophy of nature rather than on theism, an Aristotelian philosophy of nature leads in turn to theism.  So, there is an indirect connection between the possibility of objective morality and theism.  That a natural substance has the teleological properties it does is something we can know just from studying the nature of the thing; no reference to God is necessary.  But how is it that anything ever in fact actualizes the potentials inherent in its nature?  That, as Aquinas’s First Way shows, is possible in principle only if there is an Unmoved Mover (or, to be more precise, an Unactualized Actualizer) which at every moment actualizes the potentials of things without itself having to be actualized in any way.  How is it that the ends things have by nature can be efficacious?  That, as Aquinas’s Fifth Way shows, is possible in principle only if there is a Supreme Intelligence which at every moment directs things toward their ends.  How is it that things can even exist at any moment, with the natures they have, in the first place?  That, as Aquinas’s Second Way (as I interpret it) shows, is possible in principle only if there is an Uncaused Cause of existence which at every moment sustains things in being without itself having to have existence imparted to it, precisely because it is not a being among others but Subsistent Being Itself.  (In this particular argument some distinctively Thomistic metaphysical ideas enter the picture.)  

(And so forth.  I will not pursue this topic here since I have defended the Five Ways at length elsewhere -- most fully in Aquinas and in my American Catholic Philosophical Quarterly article “Existential Inertia and the Five Ways,” with three of Aquinas’s arguments defended in a little less detail in The Last Superstition.  Some relevant blog posts can be found here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.)

Third, what was said above about the foundations of ethics applies to the content and justification of morality to a large extent, but not entirely.  For one thing, the fact that God exists naturally has moral implications of its own, and since the existence of God can be known through natural reason, there are certain very general religious obligations (such as the obligation to love God) that can be known through reason alone, and thus form part of the natural law.  (Indeed, these are our highest obligations under natural law.)  Then there is the fact that the natures of things, including human nature, derive ultimately from those ideas in the divine intellect which form the archetypes by reference to which God creates.  (In this way morality is neither independent of God nor grounded in arbitrary divine commands, as I explained in a post on the Euthyphro objection.)  

Furthermore, a complete account of moral obligation, specifically, requires reference to God as legislator (even if moral obligation can proximately be explained by reference to the natural end of the will).  Finally, divine revelation is also needed for a complete account of everyday moral life.  For divine revelation discloses certain details about morality that the human intellect is too feeble reliably to discover on its own; and some aspects of the natural law are so demanding that many people are capable realistically of living up to them only given the hope of a reward in the hereafter, of the sort divine revelation promises.  (I won’t pursue these issues further here either.  I discuss them at greater length in Aquinas.  And see chapter 8 of the first volume of Michael Cronin’s The Science of Ethics for a useful treatment of the proximate and ultimate grounds of moral obligation.)

Intrinsic, derived, and as-if teleology

Let’s look more closely at the sort of teleology required for objective morality.  As my longtime readers know, I have discussed the subject of teleology in a great many places, and I’m frankly pretty tired of repeating myself.  Lengthy treatments can be found in Aquinas, The Last Superstition, and my Philosophia Christi article “Teleology: A Shopper’s Guide.”  I have also said a lot about the subject here on the blog, especially in the many posts I’ve devoted to the dispute between Aristotelian-Thomistic (A-T) philosophy and “Intelligent Design” theory.  Here I’ll just summarize the points most relevant to the issue at hand.

Start with the distinction between natural substances, artifacts, and accidental arrangements drawn by Aristotle in the Physics, and which I discussed at length in a couple of earlier posts (here and here).  To borrow some examples from those earlier posts, a liana vine is a natural substance insofar as it has an inherent or immanent tendency toward certain ends -- exhibiting certain growth patterns, taking in water and nutrients, and so forth.  A hammock that Tarzan might make from living liana vines is an artifact rather than a natural substance insofar as, while the hammock has the end or function of serving as something suitable for sleeping in, the parts of the hammock have no inherent tendency toward this end.  That end is, instead, extrinsic to the parts, imposed from outside by Tarzan rather than flowing naturally from the parts themselves (as can be seen from the fact that left to themselves the vines will tend to grow the way they otherwise would have had Tarzan not interfered with them, including in ways that will impede their performance as a hammock).  A set of liana vines that have by chance grown into a pattern that looks vaguely like a cross is an accidental arrangement rather than either a natural substance or artifact.  For there is no natural or inherent tendency of such vines to grow into such a pattern, and neither did any artificer interfere with them so as to make them grow that way for the sake of achieving some externally imposed end, such as serving as a religious symbol.  

We might usefully think of these three kinds of object in terms of a distinction drawn by John Searle in a different context.  In his book The Rediscovery of the Mind, Searle differentiates between intrinsic, derived, and as-if intentionality.  Intrinsic intentionality is the sort thoughts have.  When you have the thought that the cat is on the mat, that particular content is intrinsic to or constitutive of the thought.  By contrast, the English sentence “The cat is on the mat,” while it has the same content, does not have it intrinsically but only in a derived way.  There is nothing in the shapes, ink marks, pixels, sounds or any other physical symbols and properties in which that sentence might be embodied that gives it its intentional content or meaning.  The meaning is rather imposed from outside by language users following certain conventions.  Finally, an arrangement of stones looking very vaguely like the word “on,” which has been made by chance as the stones tumbled to the bottom of a hill during an earthquake, do not possess any intentionality at all, though look as if they did.  That is to say, they look as if someone had arranged them for the purpose of expressing the meaning of the English word “on,” though in fact they were not and the appearance is entirely accidental.

Similarly, we might say that the teleology that the liana vines manifest qua liana vines is intrinsic, that the teleology they exhibit insofar as they have been arranged by Tarzan for the purpose of functioning as a hammock is derived, and that the entirely chance arrangement of liana vines into a form looking vaguely like a cross is a case of as-if teleology insofar as the vines were not really arranged for the purpose of representing a cross but merely appear as if they were.  (To forestall an irrelevant objection, yes, God could of course cause the vines to grow in such a way that they look vaguely like a cross, just as He could cause a tortilla to exhibit a burn pattern that looks vaguely like the Virgin Mary.  But whether He does this sort of thing or not -- and the usual examples are the stuff of the Weekly World News rather than having a serious claim to miraculous status -- the point is that such patterns could arise through chance rather than being the outcome either of a natural object’s typical activity or of artifice.)

Now, the traditional Aristotelian distinction between “nature” and “art” is essentially a distinction between, on the one hand, those phenomena exhibiting intrinsic teleology, and on the other, those having only derived or as-if teleology.  Another way to put the same point is that it is essentially a distinction between, on the one hand, those objects that have substantial forms and those having only accidental forms.  It is important to emphasize this because the language of “nature versus art” sometimes leads to misunderstanding.  In particular, it is sometimes mistakenly supposed that the Aristotelian is claiming that all man-made objects are in the relevant sense “artificial” and that everything that occurs without human interference is in the relevant sense “natural.”  But that is not the case.  Water synthesized in a lab is in an obvious sense “man-made,” but it is still as “natural” in the relevant sense as the water that exists in lakes and rivers, because its tendencies are intrinsic to it, the manifestation of a substantial form.   A pile of rocks that gradually forms at the bottom of a hill is not man-made, but it is also not “natural” in the relevant sense, because the arrangement constitutes only an accidental form and the rocks have no intrinsic tendency to form a pile.  It is because the paradigmatic examples (though not all examples) of phenomena exhibiting intrinsic intentionality involve no human interference, and because the paradigmatic examples (though not all examples) of phenomena resulting from human interference involve only derived rather than intrinsic teleology, that the traditional Aristotelian distinction is made in terms of “nature versus art.”  But this is a somewhat loose way of putting it.  Again, a more precise way of speaking would be to distinguish between substantial forms and accidental forms, or between intrinsic teleology on the one hand and derived and as-if teleology on the other.  

Now, it is only intrinsic teleology or substantial form that can ground goodness as an objective feature of things.  Taking in water and nutrients is good for liana vines -- it allows them to flourish in the sense of realizing their ends -- precisely because a tendency toward those ends is intrinsic to them.  That is why we say that liana vines that do so are good specimens of liana vines, while vines that fail to do so (because of disease, damage, or what have you) are bad specimens.  This standard of goodness or badness is entirely objective because it follows from the nature of the vines themselves rather than from our subjective attitudes about them or the purposes to which we might put them.  Of course, in the case of liana vines this standard of goodness or badness is not a moral standard.  But for the Aristotelian, moral goodness is just a special case of this more general sort of goodness.  Moral goodness is the kind that exists in rational animals (namely us) because, unlike liana vines and other non-rational substances, we can intellectually grasp the ends toward which our nature directs us and freely choose whether or not to pursue them.  (For more on this subject, see the writings of mine on natural law theory cited above.)

By contrast, there is no objective feature of a hammock that makes some things good for it and other things bad.  To be sure, we would say of a hammock which is fraying and ready to fall apart that it is a bad specimen of a hammock, and of a hammock that is more tightly constructed that it is a good hammock.  But that is to speak loosely.  For what makes a hammock good or bad has nothing to do with anything intrinsic to the liana vines (or whatever) out of which it is made, but concerns instead our purposes or ends in making it.  It is an entirely mind-dependent or conventional standard of goodness rather than one that is there in the nature of things themselves.  

It should be even more obvious that as-if teleology can provide no objective standard of goodness.  If we say of the liana vines that have by chance grown into something vaguely resembling a cross that they look like a “good cross” or a “bad cross,” we are again only speaking loosely.  Since they have no inherent tendency to grow into a cross in the first place -- that they have grown this way in this one case is the result of a chance convergence of other factors such as how they happened to have fallen, how they happened to have been rooted, how much water and nutrients they happened to have taken in, etc. -- there is no objective sense to be made of their being a “good cross” or “bad cross.”  If an artist had tried to make them grow this way, we could have said it is a “good cross” or “bad cross” in the sense that the artist’s craftsmanship was good or bad, or that his materials were more or less suitable for his ends.  But by hypothesis that is not at issue here either.  The most we could say is that it is as if the liana vines that have grown this way were a “good cross” or “bad cross.”  But this “as-if” goodness or badness is no more objective (or even in any way real) goodness or badness than as-if teleology is objective teleology, or as-if intentionality is real intentionality.

Naturalism and as-if teleology

Now, scientism and naturalism as they are typically understood can give you at most only as-if teleology and as-if objective goodness, but not the real thing.  The reason why will be obvious to readers of The Last Superstition and of the many other things I’ve written on the subject of the transition from Aristotelian-Scholastic to early modern philosophy.  Here too I am getting tired of having to repeat myself, so I will once again focus on just the points most directly relevant to the issue at hand.  (I also hasten to emphasize that the sketch of the history of this transition that I am about to give is by no means a purely partisan one.  Those familiar with the work of historians of early modern philosophy like Margaret Osler, Kenneth Clatterbaugh, Dennis Des Chene, and Walter Ott, and philosophers of science like Brian Ellis and Nancy Cartwright, will recognize the general themes.)

The transition in question involved a number of factors, but the central component was a rejection of the Aristotelian-Scholastic doctrine of formal and final causes in favor of a broadly “mechanistic” conception of nature.  There are features of the early mechanistic theories that did not survive -- for example, early proponents of the “mechanical philosophy” sought to reduce all causation to the push-pull variety, but that didn’t last long -- but the core idea was that the explanation of natural phenomena should make reference neither to substantial forms or immanent natures nor to intrinsic or “built in” teleology or final causes.  As Ellis has put it, the early moderns replaced the Aristotelian notion of active powers with an essentially “passivist” conception of nature.  For the Aristotelian-Scholastic tradition, by virtue of their substantial forms natural substances exhibit a directedness toward the generation of certain outcomes as toward a final cause.  Efficient cause thus presupposes final cause or teleology, which in turn presupposes substantial form.  Get rid of substantial form and final causality, and efficient causality in any robust sense -- any sense that entails an active tendency toward the generation of certain effects -- goes out the window with it.  That is precisely why Hume’s puzzles about causation and induction followed upon the early moderns’ anti-Aristotelian revolution.  What replaced active powers was the idea of natural phenomena as essentially passive -- as inherently directed toward no particular outcome at all -- on which certain “laws” have been imposed from outside.  If A tends regularly to generate B, that is, on this new view, not because of anything intrinsic to A itself, but rather because it is simply a “law of nature” that A will be followed by B.

But why does such a “law” hold?  The early moderns had a principled answer to this question.   They were theists, and took it that God had simply imposed on inherently passive matter certain patterns of activity.  Hence for Descartes, Newton, and Boyle it is not that no teleology or final causes exist at all.  Rather, natural teleology was reinterpreted as entirely derived rather than intrinsic.  Paley’s conception of the world as a kind of machine made by a divine artificer was the logical outcome of this way of thinking.  Like watches, hammocks, and other everyday artifacts, natural objects came to be seen as having essentially accidental rather than substantial forms.  The Aristotelian distinction between “nature” and “art” was dissolved, and the natural world was reinterpreted as a kind of divine artifact.

One implication of this is that goodness is no longer an inherent feature of natural phenomena, any more than it is an inherent feature of hammocks, watches, and the like.  Just as the goodness or badness of a hammock or watch is relative to the purposes of the makers and users of such artifacts, and has nothing to do with anything inherent to the parts of these objects themselves, so too on the view of nature associated with Descartes, Newton, Boyle and Paley, the goodness or badness of various human actions cannot intelligibly be seen to follow from anything inherent to human nature itself, but rests entirely on the purposes of the divine artificer.  Morality comes to seem no longer a matter of natural law but rather of sheer divine command.  That is not to say that the thinkers named were all actually committed to this sort of view about morality.  I’m talking about what the view of nature they championed tends to lead to, whether or not they realized it.

(And as I have repeatedly pointed out -- though people fanatically obsessed with “defeating Darwinism” seem never to want to get the point -- the deeply anti-Aristotelian character of the conception of the world as a kind of “machine,” and the many unhappy philosophical and theological consequences of this conception, are the reasons Aristotelian-Thomistic philosophers are often so critical of “Intelligent Design” theory.)  

Now, what happens when you keep the anti-Aristotelian component of this position but throw out the theological component is that you get a conception of nature on which both intrinsic and derived teleology disappear, leaving only as-if teleology, which is no teleology at all.  And by the same token, both intrinsic and derived goodness disappear as well, leaving only as-if goodness, which is not really goodness at all.  On this conception, since the Aristotelian-Scholastic conception of nature is seen as a medieval relic, there is no intrinsic teleology to a liana vine, and thus no objective reason to call this growth pattern good and that one bad.  But neither is there any derived teleology or goodness, since there is (on this view) no divine artificer of the Newtonian or Paleyan sort either, whose purposes might give content to teleological and evaluative descriptions of natural phenomena in the absence of inherent Aristotelian forms and final causes.  The most we can say is that the liana vine behaves as if it had teleology and as if this growth pattern were good and that one bad.  For on the view of nature in question, the material world ultimately has only the mathematically describable (and essentially non-teleological) properties described by physics.

This is why John Searle is right to say (as he does in the book cited above) that naturalists are deluding themselves if they think that Darwinism gives them a way to “naturalize” teleology.  As Searle argues, the point of explanations in terms of natural selection is precisely to eliminate teleology, to show that such-and-such biological phenomena do not really have functions but only seem to (which is exactly what such explanations do show if interpreted within the larger context of a naturalistic metaphysical framework).  It is also why Alex Rosenberg is right to say that if we accept scientism, then to be consistent we have to deny the existence of any teleology and value whatsoever.   That is not to say that this conception of nature is coherent; on the contrary, I think it is completely incoherent, as I have argued in The Last Superstition, in the posts on Alex Rosenberg just linked to, and in other places.  But it is the conception of nature to which many naturalists are either explicitly or implicitly committed.

This brings us back at last to Fincke.  Both in the post linked to above and in an earlier post, Fincke makes use of expressions like “teleology,” “form,” “function,” “flourishing,” and “intrinsic goodness,” and refers positively to Aristotle.  That makes him sound like an old fashioned Scholastic like me, or at least like a neo-Aristotelian of the Ellis or Cartwright sort.  Yet he also uses “function” in a way that seems to imply that complex natural objects are simply arrangements of smaller components which interact in a law-like way.  This indicates a kind of reductionism that no Aristotelian can accept.  From an Aristotelian point of view, neither complex natural phenomena like organisms nor even relatively simpler natural substances like water are in any way less real than or reducible to their parts.  On the contrary, the parts of an organism are intelligible only by reference to the whole of which they are a part. And even the oxygen and hydrogen in a certain volume of water are less real than the water itself in the sense that while the prime matter underlying that volume has the substantial form of water, the hydrogen and oxygen in it exist only “virtually” rather than “actually.”

There is nothing in any of this, rightly understood, that is in any way contrary to what we know from modern physics, chemistry, and biology, but it does require a very radical rethinking of the metaphysical assumptions most philosophers (and scientists too, in their philosophical moments) bring to bear, almost always uncritically, on their interpretation of science.  (David Oderberg’s Real Essentialism is the most thorough recent treatment of the relationship between Aristotelian metaphysics and modern science.)

My guess would be that Fincke has simply not thought through the details of Aristotelian metaphysics thoroughly enough to see how radically at odds it is with the metaphysical assumptions typically made by contemporary academic philosophers, and naturalists in particular.  But I have not read a lot of his writing, so it is possible that he knows exactly what he is doing and that his comments about Libresco reflect a much larger, and quite radical, rethinking of naturalism itself.  (I highly doubt it, but who knows.)

If the latter is the case, then the rethink has to be very radical indeed, and it would be quite silly in that event for Fincke glibly to pretend that his fellow atheists should have no qualms about hopping on board.  For not only must a consistent Aristotelian essentially chuck out most of what has passed for the general metaphysical conventional wisdom in mainstream philosophy during the last few centuries, but he must also take very seriously the natural theology that has traditionally been associated with Aristotelian metaphysics and philosophy of nature.  That is not dogmatically to insist that there can be no way to extricate the metaphysics and philosophy of nature from the natural theology (though I don’t for a moment think this can be done).  Perhaps Fincke could make a go of it.  The point is rather that (as I show in many places, like Aquinas) the general metaphysics and philosophy of nature on the one hand and the natural theology on the other are very deeply interrelated.   To develop a consistently Aristotelian conception of nature without committing oneself to an Aristotelian natural theology is a major project, not the work of a few blog posts.  

More likely, Fincke is essentially committed to the same naturalistic assumptions his fellow atheists are, and does not realize that the Aristotelian categories he likes cannot be so easily harmonized with those assumptions.  And if that is the case, he will certainly have failed to give either teleology or morality an objective foundation, for he will have established at most only as-if teleology and goodness rather than either intrinsic or derived teleology and goodness.  But as things stand his arguments seem too ambiguous between a traditional Aristotelian reading on the one hand, and a naturalistic reading on the other, to know for sure what the content of his position really is.

472 comments:

  1. cont.

    So if we say:

    Substance is Being.
    Accident is Being.

    Then it seems Scotus would identify Being as signifying an act of existence in each and would point to this as a univocal predication, as the only way to preserve the commonality.

    But Aquinas would add that these don't signify the acts in the same way; Accident presupposes Substance, and the reverse is not true. And I think you would agree that this relation is essential to the meaning of each term, and must somehow be preserved to say that we have a complete meaning in mind.

    Yet the thing signified is the same in each.

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  2. Josh:

    The way he understands it, Aquinas defends the meaning of a term being composed of a thing signified and a mode of how it's signified. And this is irreducible in his estimation. Scotus believed you could retain meaning even without including the mode of signification.

    Well, I would agree with Aquinas here. I think that the meaning of a term includes both a sense and a referent, as Frege argued. And I have argued during our previous epic dialogue about analogy that, for me, and I’m not too sure how Aquinas would view things, sense is directly related to our perspective. The same thing, or referent, can have different senses, because of how it appears to our minds from different perspectives.

    For example, the Evening Star and the Morning Star both refer to the planet Venus, but in the former, Venus appears during the evening, and in the latter, Venus appears during the morning. The sense comes from the way the referent appears from a particular perspective. And that is just the denotative part of the sense. There is also the connotative part of the sense, which has to do with additional associations involved in that perspective that come from one’s conceptual framework and cultural background, for example.

    I think that this is the source of the conflict. The real question is, can we leave the mode out of predication, and still maintain the meaning of a term? I think the test of this is to predicate Being of both Substance and Accident according to both Scotus and Aquinas' understanding of the term.

    We can do so, if you like. I would say that substance and accident are something, but they are different kinds of something. Substance is some thing and accident is something that exists “within” substance. Both are different expressions of Being, because both are real in the sense of being something as opposed to non-Being. In that sense, they have the same sense and referent, i.e. “something” as the sense and Being being the referent.

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  3. Josh:

    But Aquinas would add that these don't signify the acts in the same way; Accident presupposes Substance, and the reverse is not true. And I think you would agree that this relation is essential to the meaning of each term, and must somehow be preserved to say that we have a complete meaning in mind.

    Sorry, I didn’t see this part of the post.

    I still think that they are both real, and whether one exists within the other, whether one depends upon the other, all presuppose that they exist in some way. We can specify the different kinds of Being, whether actual or potential, substantial or accidental, necessary or contingent, and so on, but they all are forms of Being.

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  4. Dguller,

    Both are different expressions of Being, because both are real in the sense of being something as opposed to non-Being. In that sense, they have the same sense and referent, i.e. “something” as the sense and Being being the referent.

    See, I'd argue you correctly got the sense/mode in "expressions of X," recognizing them as different.

    If substance and accident are spoken of with respect to being, and are spoken of univocally (in Aquinas' concrete term), then you are in effect saying that substance and accident are identical. And that's obviously false...because one has an ontologically prior relationship to the other. And on that point...

    I still think that they are both real, and whether one exists within the other, whether one depends upon the other, all presuppose that they exist in some way. We can specify the different kinds of Being, whether actual or potential, substantial or accidental, necessary or contingent, and so on, but they all are forms of Being

    In saying this, you are simply (and correctly) identifying the thing signified in Aquinas' concrete term. All that's left is the mode, which you've also correctly identified in this paragraph as being essentially different. I guess I no longer have any beef, if it ends on that?

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  5. @dguller

    I really think that the primitives here are “all”, “some”, and “none”, which then get you to “same” (or “identical”, “equal”), “similar” and “different” by virtue of how many properties, attributes, qualities, modes, acts, or whatever, they have in common, and that “analogy” is essentially “similarity”, i.e. partial identity, and partial difference. So, you cannot have analogy without presupposing “identity”, “difference” and “parts”. Otherwise, it makes no sense, and thus even if it were a “fundamental capability of the human intellect”, it is only by virtue of the human intellect’s power to identify partial identity and partial difference when comparing things to one another.

    I don't think similarity can be worked out as "some" vs. "all" or "none." True, there is partial difference and partial sameness inasmuch as parts of things may be the same and diverse in comparison. But that boils down to univocity. For example:

    Some cats are black spotted.
    Some dogs are black spotted.

    One of the cats may have black and tan spots. One of the dogs may have black and white spots. They are partly the same inasmuch as both have black spots. But insofar as they have black spots the spotting is univocally the same. I don't think that captures the notion of similarity in four-term analogy.

    I still think Owens's explanation that a single notion considered differently accounts for the partial similarity and partial difference makes the most sense. Like I said, it is something our intellects are able to do, but I don't think it is voodoo. Another example that might be helpful is the mind's ability to abstract with precision and non-precision. We can say:

    A dog has animality.
    A dog is an animal.

    In the first case, the mind is able to consider the quiddity or genus prescinding from its instances and like a part. In the second, the mind considers it without doing so and like a whole. Similarly with analogy, the mind is able to consider the analogous notion (e.g., "type") in four-term analogy prescinding from its terms. In that case, we have similarity. When it brings in the terms (e.g., "of substance" and "of quantity"), however, we have the difference.

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  6. And I’m not too sure if your explanation works either, because by that reasoning, God is also in a substance, much like form and matter, because he is “that from which substance comes to be or exists”. So, I don’t think that we can say anything about it, other than it is not physically outside a substance, and is not a physical component, but what it is is just beyond our comprehension. It is kind of like negative theology.

    A-T philosophy constitutes a different way of thinking about the structure of finite material being than what we are accustomed to IMO. At least it was for me when I was intially learning it. The default view today is Cartesianism or mechanism. Matter is a res extensa or extended thing, which is actually a substance for Aristotle. If the "self" is not accounted for in materialist terms (brain or epiphenomena), then it is a mind, which is a spiritual substance separate from bodily substance. So right away we get into a dualism and subjectivism, which many would argue is unbridgeable. The hylemorphic view, however, while expressing a sort of dualism, is unique in that matter and form or body and soul are a unified in composite.

    Matter and form are *intrinsic* causes of a substance, i.e., that from which it comes to be or exists. God is a cause of substance as well, but not in the same way as matter or form. He is a cause of being in the order of efficient causality and acts as an *extrinsic* cause. In a certain sense, you could say He is *in* or present to all things by virtue of His power inasmuch as He holds all things in being or gives all things their act of being (esse). But He is not in all things formally as in pantheism or panentheism (e.g., Spinoza). One can say God is a "substance" in the sense that He is being itself. His essence is being and as such, He is subsistent being.

    You are right that matter and form are inconceivable within the default framework. Matter is not a "chunk" of anything. It is the principle of potency in substance, whereas form is the principle of actuality. Form ultimately makes a thing to be what it is (substantial form) or to be what it is in some way (accidental form). Matter is a disposition to take on different forms or actualities. These principles give us a way to account for both permanence and transience in change. Prior to Aristotle, Parmenides had argued that change was an illusion on his account of being. The atomists proposed "atoms and the void," but on this reductionist account there is no substance beyond atoms; everything else is an arrangement or aggregate of them (including you and me), which makes an account of substantial identity and unity impossible. Plato came up with his theory of the forms, which wasn't altogether satisfying.

    So given this (hopefully accurate) account, we can see that Aristotle's concerns were different than those of science today. The latter isn't so much concerned with accounting for or defining motion, for example. It assumes change and is concerned with modeling and quantifying phenomena. There is nothing wrong with that for what it is worth.

    In any event, I would highly recommend the two philosophy of nature books I mentioned above. Unfortunately, Smith's book is out of print, but you should still be able to find it online at Amazon or Abebooks. As for anthologies, my favorite to date is Timothy McDermott's Aquinas: Selected Philosophical Writings. One downside IMO is that in translating for a modern audience, he doesn't always employ standard or traditional terminology, but that's more of an annoyance than an obstacle.

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  7. @Josh

    Nice post(s) on the difference between Aquinas and Scotus on being.

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  8. Sobieski,

    I am loathe to take credit for Ralph McInerny's scholarship, may he rest in peace. But as far as translating it to this forum, I'll accept! Gracias!

    "Scotus and Univocity," in Being and Predication, btw.

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  9. Thanks for the reference, Josh.

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  10. I'm going to go out and point to the elephant in the room here, because I'm simply not interested in being as courteous and forgiving as Ed in his blog entry, which I really enjoyed...

    Any naturalist who thinks that teleology is in any way or form compatible with his belief system is delusional. Plain and simple.

    One has a better chance of squaring the circle than proving that naturalism and teleology and not violently at odds. Sorry.

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  11. @ hunt

    --Naturalism, particularly a naturalism with evolutionary natural selection (the "universal acid") is not incoherent, although to think in purely mechanistic terms is something like programming in assembly language.

    It’s as incoherent as it gets and the irony is only through teleological language and linguistic gimmicks does it even become intelligible – albeit still remaining false.

    --Teleology is mental shorthand; a useful but ultimately false way to think about nature.

    No , it’s not. You simply do not understand teleology and are blindly wedded to a reductionist belief system. This is just a typical materialist/atheist talking point.

    --It's much like many other "good," as in more or less useful, theories that get you most of the way in 98% of the cases and fail in the only the last 2% (think Newtonian Mechanics).

    Wrong again. Teleology is present and at work 100% and provides insights into things 100% of the time.

    --There are about a zillion examples from biology, from the vagus nerve to the structure of the eye, showing the teleology is a false conception, though it consistently fools those not expert in any one area, which includes most of us.

    Wrong again (again lol). There is not a single incidence in biology that undermines teleology. In fact, biology IS teleology. As Haldane (biologist) once put it, and I am paraphrasing, for the biologists teleology is like a mistress, he cannot live without her but cannot b e seen with her in public. Without teleology there is no biology, period. All biological organisms and their parts are drenched in teleology.

    --And by the way, my reference to eyes and nerves doesn't mean I've fallen prey to some Paleyian misconception in either the atheistic or Feserian way. What I mean is that eyes and vagus nerves tell us the nature does not include inherent teleology in natural processes; they are apparently dumb to final causes.

    No, the eyes do not tell us such a thing. That is simply absurd and for the life of me could not understand how to even make sense of what you’re saying. You are ironically not only have you fallen prey to misconceptions of teleology, you don’t seem to understand it at all. Eyes are not ‘dumb’ to final causes. Eyes are designed for visual perception. Are you listening to what you’re saying?

    To a great extent, this can be seen from the non-optimal structures in nature, as per my last comment, which seem heedless to their goal. There are countless inefficiencies in nature, which present not only a problem for ID, but also for teleology.

    Just because something does not instantiate perfectly that doesn’t mean it’s devoid of teleology. That I think is part of Teleology 101. Unfortunately hunt you have provided not a single case of a substantive argument. You are blindly wedded to the dogmas of reductionism and materialism and are criticizing something you don’t even understand.

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  12. Josh:

    If substance and accident are spoken of with respect to being, and are spoken of univocally (in Aquinas' concrete term), then you are in effect saying that substance and accident are identical. And that's obviously false...because one has an ontologically prior relationship to the other. And on that point...

    This is one of the paradoxes of Thomism.

    Being is not a genus, and thus the different expressions of Being cannot be considered to be different species of Being as a common genus. However, we can clearly recognize that actual being is not the same as potential being, and yet they are both identical in being something as opposed to nothing. So, how can we recognize them as different kinds of Being if the genus-species categories are not predicable of Being at all? Any differentiation within Being is incoherent if Being is not a genus.

    Well, here is where analogy is supposed to come save the day. However, we have agreed that for analogy to be possible, there must be a common “something” shared being things being compared. What could this “something” be with respect to different kinds of Being? It cannot be Being, because for two things to share something is simply to share a genus, and Being cannot be a genus. So, what else can it be? We have no idea.

    And that is the paradox. What potential being and actual being both share is Being, because they are different kinds of Being, which presupposes that Being is a genus, and yet they cannot share Being, because Being is not a genus. It is ultimately just incoherent to me, and just waving analogy as a solution doesn’t work, because analogy has rules, which are established based upon our use of it in the empirical world, which are violated when it comes to the transcendentals in Thomism, because they must have something in common (for analogy to work), and yet cannot have something in common (because this would require the genus-species structure, which does not apply).

    Perhaps a solution would be to come up with an account of how X and Y can be different expressions of Z, and yet Z is not a genus, and X and Y are not species of Z. Is this even possible in Thomism?

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  13. I'll comment on the rest later today. Busy.

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  14. @dguller

    Any differentiation within Being is incoherent if Being is not a genus.

    It is just the opposite. What difference is going to differentiate being? The only difference would be non-being or nothing, as anything else would be within the scope of being. It seems to me you are embracing Parmenides's position: no change, no diversity. Why don't you defend your doctrine of univocal being for a change?

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  15. Sobieski:

    It is just the opposite. What difference is going to differentiate being? The only difference would be non-being or nothing, as anything else would be within the scope of being. It seems to me you are embracing Parmenides's position: no change, no diversity. Why don't you defend your doctrine of univocal being for a change?

    Then how are there different kinds of Being? Actual versus potential? Substantial versus accidental? Material versus immaterial? They are all obviously different kinds of Being, and yet you are saying that there is nothing that could differentiate Being. So, how can you have different kinds without differentiation?

    And I don’t have a “doctrine of univocal being”. I’ve just noticed a possible inconsistency in Thomism that I am exploring here. Analogy demands that there be something in common when two things are being compared, but this is impossible when it comes to the transcendentals, including Being, and so it seems that either analogy is impossible, or the doctrine of transcendentals is wrong, or both are wrong. However, it doesn’t seem possible that they are both correct.

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  16. Sobieski:

    I don't think similarity can be worked out as "some" vs. "all" or "none." True, there is partial difference and partial sameness inasmuch as parts of things may be the same and diverse in comparison. But that boils down to univocity.

    First, if similarity requires “parts of things [to] be the same and diverse in comparison”, then how does that not involve “some”, “all” and “none”? How do you define “same” and “diverse” without using these concepts?

    Second, if “partial difference and partial sameness” ultimately “boils down to univocity”, then that is precisely my argument, as well.

    I still think Owens's explanation that a single notion considered differently accounts for the partial similarity and partial difference makes the most sense. Like I said, it is something our intellects are able to do, but I don't think it is voodoo. Another example that might be helpful is the mind's ability to abstract with precision and non-precision.

    But think about it. You have a single X considered from different perspectives P1, P2, and P3. X looks like X1 from P1, X2 from P2, and X3 from P3. Say that X1 is similar to X2 by virtue of “partial similarity and partial difference”. How can you understand this unless by understanding that there are some attributes, properties, states, or whatever, in X1 that are the same as X2, and some attributes, or whatever, in X1 that are different from X2? I mean, the concept of “parts” in “partial” implies “some”, which implies “neither all nor none”. They all seem to hang together.

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  17. @dguller

    And I don’t have a “doctrine of univocal being”.

    You said earlier: Any differentiation within Being is incoherent if Being is not a genus.

    That is exactly a doctrine of univocal being. Look, answering questions with questions seems to be a standard diversionary tactic of yours. I am asking a question for a change. If you deny analogy or at least have a problem with it, then let's entertain your alternatve, which is to say that being is a genus and predicated univocally. You see before you change and diversity in the world. So how do you account for it? If being is a *genus*, then there must be differences added to it that divide it into its various types. The only possible difference from being that I can see is non-being or nothing as everything else falls within the scope of being. But nothing cannot diversify being. So please explain how being is diversified on your account.

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  18. @dguller

    How do you explain "same" and "diverse" without using these concepts?

    I think I was pretty clear. There can be different types of similarity or "partial sameness and partial difference" can mean different things. You are cashing analogy out in the sense that some parts between wholes are the same (my example was black spots), while other parts are different (e.g., others spots on one whole being white and another whole being tan). Thus, you were identifying analogy with "some," whereas presumably univocity would correspond with "all" and equivocity with "none." But that type of "partial sameness and partial difference" is not found with analogy. Your explanation of "analogy" at the level of the whole boils down to univocity at the level of the parts:

    Some dogs are black spotted.
    Some cats are black spotted.

    "Black spotted" is the same in each whole, though the wholes may be different as regards other parts. That example does not capture the type of "partial sameness and partial difference" found in analogy or in the example that I presented between relations in the categories of substance and quantity:

    Man is to substance as line is to quantity.

    But think about it.

    I have explained myself in terms of four-term analogy ad nauseum. Further I offered the example of a similar operation of the intellect whereby it can abstract quiddities with and without precision:

    A dog is an animal.
    A dog has animality.

    I think the intellect can do something similar with four-term analogy by considering the analogous concept with its terms implicit or explicit (cf. Owens). We can agree to disagree at this point because we are just going around in circles. I would be interested, however, to learn of your account for the diversification of being as a genus.

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  19. They were theists, and took it that God had simply imposed on inherently passive matter certain patterns of activity. Hence for Descartes, Newton, and Boyle it is not that no teleology or final causes exist at all. Rather, natural teleology was reinterpreted as entirely derived rather than intrinsic.

    What if one takes a Spinoza-like variant of this idea, and supposes that the mathematical structure of the universe is not a free choice made by God, but rather a necessary fact that follows from God's nature, perhaps adding the pantheistic conclusion that the physical universe is just an aspect of God? (Some neo-Platonists probably would have been comfortable with such an idea, since many of them had strong Pythagorean tendencies, and you have said that neo-Platonists and Aristotle are the main philosophical sources for Classical Theism.) In this case the universe might still have a naturalistic, mathematical structure, but it wouldn't be a mere "artifice". One could also combine this with something like Tipler's Omega Point theory (a naturalistic extension of de Chardin's version) to make the teleology even more obvious; and Tipler definitely seems to be a naturalist who believes the universe follows the same mathematical laws everywhere, and that humans are types of machines, in spite of the fact that he also equates the Omega Point with God. In this case I think you can have something like a naturalistic account of teleology that seems to avoid all your criticisms, and perhaps even shows that you are wrong to assume that it must necessarily be "deeply anti-Aristotelian" to consider the world as a type of "machine" (if "machine" is understood, not in terms of artifice or construction by some purposeful agent, but just in terms of something whose behavior is determined by the lawlike interactions of its component parts in a "reductionist" manner...note that taking this machine-like view of the universe, and of humans in particular, does not require one to be a philosophical materialist, as shown by people like Lockwood and Chalmers).

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  20. Sobieski:

    That is exactly a doctrine of univocal being. Look, answering questions with questions seems to be a standard diversionary tactic of yours. I am asking a question for a change. If you deny analogy or at least have a problem with it, then let's entertain your alternatve, which is to say that being is a genus and predicated univocally. You see before you change and diversity in the world. So how do you account for it? If being is a *genus*, then there must be differences added to it that divide it into its various types. The only possible difference from being that I can see is non-being or nothing as everything else falls within the scope of being. But nothing cannot diversify being. So please explain how being is diversified on your account.

    Here’s where we’re at.

    On the one hand, it seems that for analogy to work, a genus-species classification must be possible, because that which is common between the two things being compared is the genus, and without a genus, there can be no comparison. On the other hand, there are some things whereby this simply does not work, such as for Being, which has good arguments for why it cannot be a genus, and thus cannot be a common factor in an analogy. However, there are clearly divisions in Being, such as actual versus potential being, substantial versus accidental being, necessary versus contingent being, material versus immaterial being, and so on. What could these different kinds of Being have in common? According to good arguments, they cannot have Being in common, because Being is not a genus. However, for them to all be considered kinds of Being, then there must be something in common, which has been shown to be impossible.

    So, we are at an impasse, if one accepts Thomist principles.

    Some possible suggestions, which we can flesh out in further discussion:

    (1) Perhaps Being simply divides itself by virtue of its own nature. After all, there is nothing “outside” of Being, since Being encompasses the totality of what exists. So, the division would have to come from “within” Being. I’m not too sure if there are Thomist arguments against this position.
    (2) Perhaps our cognitive abilities simply are inadequate to understand reality at such a general level. In other words, Being and the transcendentals are simply beyond our understanding, because the only way to reach them is analogy, and analogy cannot reach them. It seems like we understand them, because they have superficial plausibility, but when you dig deeper, there is an inconsistency, and thus our apparent understanding is deceptive.

    And even if (1) and (2) fail to be adequate, the burden of proof is not upon me. I am not an adherent of Thomism, but only a fellow traveler who finds much of it to be of value. If a system is found to be inconsistent, then either the inconsistency must be resolved, or the system must be rejected as incoherent. It is not my responsibility to solve the inconsistency, but rather it falls upon adherents of the system.

    I would be very interested to see how this problem is resolved.

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  21. Sobieski:

    I think I was pretty clear. There can be different types of similarity or "partial sameness and partial difference" can mean different things. You are cashing analogy out in the sense that some parts between wholes are the same (my example was black spots), while other parts are different (e.g., others spots on one whole being white and another whole being tan). Thus, you were identifying analogy with "some," whereas presumably univocity would correspond with "all" and equivocity with "none." But that type of "partial sameness and partial difference" is not found with analogy. Your explanation of "analogy" at the level of the whole boils down to univocity at the level of the parts

    “Parts” does not have to mean physical components. The concept “human being” has “parts” in the form of “rational animal”, which themselves can be subdivided further into “appetitive and vegetative souls”, and so on. In other words, there are different kinds of divisions other than the physical one that you are describing, and as long as there are divisions, or species of genera, if you like, then you can have an analogy going. And yes, I have given an argument for why all analogy must terminate at some univocality in order to be possible at all.

    Man is to substance as line is to quantity.

    We have already gone over this. You have two relationships:

    (1) Man to substance
    (2) Line to quantity

    You are then comparing (1) to (2) in a further comparison. The question is what is common in the relationship in (1) and the relationship in (2) to ground the analogy. If there is no such commonality, then there can be no relationship between (1) and (2). Granted that there is a commonality, the question is what this commonality is supposed to be.

    In other words, the relationships are as follows:

    (1*) Man is related to substance by virtue of relation R
    (2*) Line is related to quantity by virtue of relation R

    It is on the basis of R that you can compare (1) to (2) at all. And it is at this point that my argument gets going, because you can intelligibly ask whether R is the same in (1*) and (2*), similar in (1*) and (2*), or different in (1*) and (2*), because that exhausts the possibilities. As I have argued before, if R is the same, then you have univocal meaning; if R is different, then you have no comparison; and if R is similar, then further analysis must either end in univocal meaning or infinite regress.

    In the first case, the mind is able to consider the quiddity or genus prescinding from its instances and like a part. In the second, the mind considers it without doing so and like a whole. Similarly with analogy, the mind is able to consider the analogous notion (e.g., "type") in four-term analogy prescinding from its terms. In that case, we have similarity. When it brings in the terms (e.g., "of substance" and "of quantity"), however, we have the difference.

    Let’s look at these two statements:

    (3) A dog has animality.
    (4) A dog is an animal.

    I read them differently. I see (3) as identifying part of what defines a dog’s identity, i.e. having or possessing the nature of “animal”. And in (4), you are talking about a dog being an instance of the genus of “animal”. Actually, they both are basically saying the same thing, which is that part of what it means to be a dog is to be a member of the genus “animal” by virtue of having an animal nature. In other words, you are the nature that you have, and that makes you a particular of a universal, or a species of a genus. So, I don’t see how your analysis of how the mind is supposed to work actually makes your point.

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  22. I mean, you say that when an analogy is made in a four-term analogy, the mind can abstract “the analogous notion” from the terms, which you call a “similarity” relation. So, to formalize it a little, when you have the following situation:

    (5) A is to B is like C is to D

    So, you have two relationships:

    (6) A to B
    (7) C to D

    And you can say that (6) is like (7) on the basis of their shared underlying relationship, or

    (8) A is to B is like C is to D by virtue of R

    In other words, because (6) contains R and (7) contains R, then you can say that (6) is like (7), i.e. they are similar, because they are neither totally the same nor totally different, but rather have partial identity and partial difference. And the “partial identity” in this case is R.

    Now, it seems that what the mind has to abstract from (6) and (7) is R, and when it is able to do so, then you can have the four-term analogy. Sure, there are differences between (6) and (7). That is why (6) and (7) are not identical, but only similar. In other words, when the mind focuses upon R as the connection between (6) and (7) that makes the analogy possible, it understands R as being the same between (6) and (7), and thus univocal. But that is just a matter of focus. Of course, a bridge requires two sides to connect, and thus it is implicit in R in this context that there is (6) and (7), and that they contain differences, as well.

    Again, I’m not too sure what you’re getting at, and it seems that my analysis seems to make more sense, at least to me, even though that’s to be expected! :) It seems that what you are saying is that when the mind abstracts R from (6) and (7), then you want to call that “similarity”. In other words, when the mind is just thinking about R and not anything else in (6) and (7), then you have “similarity”. I don’t understand that at all. When it is thinking about R, it is just thinking about R, and not any of the terms in the comparison. Similarly, when I abstract “dog” from Fido, I am not thinking about Fido anymore, but only about his dog nature in the abstract. Or, when I think about the number 5, I am not thinking about five things. So, I don’t understand how just thinking about R counts as a relationship between different things once R has been abstracted from different things.

    Maybe we are going around in circles, but I really just do not understand your account. It seems to have some superficial plausibility, but then when I dig deeper, it just doesn’t make much sense. That could be my misunderstanding, but your examples haven’t made the case, as far as I am concerned.

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  23. Dguller,

    I think you raise a good point for Thomists: how can Being both act as a genus while not being a genus?

    I'm fairly certain the key is in Aquinas' differentiation between two types of abstraction: abstraction and separation, where the former deals with simple apprehension, the first act of the mind, and the latter deals with judgment, the second. And it's judgment/separation where differentiation can take place with respect to being. And this type of abstraction is different from abstracting an essence like a specific difference or genus, which only involves simple apprehension.

    I'll try to go deeper with this after I catch up on Breaking Bad with the woman.

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  24. @dguller

    On the one hand, it seems that for analogy to work, a genus-species classification must be possible...

    That view as regards being ends with embracing the Parmenidean position and absurdity. As regards your (1), a genus plus a difference makes a species. If the difference is contained within the genus, then the species and genus would be the same because the difference is contained within the genus to begin with and does not come from outside of it to diversify it. If you want to say somehow that being is diversified like a genus and not according to analogous modes, then you need to make a case. Otherwise (1) like (2) constitutes an appeal to ignorance and not a disproof of the A-T position. Regardless of explanations, however, we do in fact analogize because the intellect is able to see a sameness in difference among things that ultimately can't be reducible to univocity without embracing absurdity.

    And even if (1) and (2) fail to be adequate...

    You can't disprove A-T on analogy by fiat. We are dealing with an exhaustive division as regards predication: univocity (sameness), equivocity (difference) and analogy (similarity). To say analogy is reducible to univocity leads to absurdity as regards being. If you want to make that claim, then the burden of proof is on you to show how it is not absurd, not on A-T and sanity. On the A-T view, there is a way to account for diversity of being and thus our common experience of reality. The idea that it is unintelligible to you stems from your assertion that analogy reduces univocity, which is question begging without proof.

    Earlier you agreed that the analogy of proportion or attribution (vs. four-term analogy), which is the type of analogy St. Thomas uses to explain the modes of being found in the categories, is fine. It was the type of analogy cited in the Wippel and Owens texts where there is a primary referent (e.g., substance) to which all secondary analogs (e.g., categorical accidents) are referred. Now it seems you only agreed insofar as analogy is understaood as reducible to univocity, i.e., some identity in species or genus.

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  25. We have already gone over this...

    Just to sum up: Yes, I offered the similarity of relations in the categories of substance and quantity example. Then you offered the "some" parts/identity explanation of analogy in response to it. Afterwards, I responded that some common part or parts among wholes amounts to univocity at the level of parts and not analogy. That explanation does not match the similarity and difference in the common notion found between the relations in the two categories. I.e., it is not a genus or species insofar as the similarity is concerned.

    Finally, I offered the example of the mind's ability to abstract a nature or quiddity with and without precision. In abstraction without precision, the essence abstracted from a thing does not exclude its particularities, but includes them implicitly and indeterminately. In abstraction with precision, however, the essence abstracted does exclude the thing's particularities. So the essence of Fido, for example, can be considered in two ways. Abstracted without precision, Fido’s essence is dog. Abstracted with precision, however, his essence is, say, "dog-ness." Fido is not dog-ness, but has dog-ness since his essence is conceived as a part rather than as a whole in this mode.

    In an analogous way, the mind in four-term analogy can consider the analogous notion ("type") leaving aside its terms ("of substance" and "of quantity") as implicit and indeterminate to see the sameness. Or it can consider the analogous notion with its terms explicit and determinate such that it sees the difference. It was just another example showing that the intellect is capable of considering one and same thing in different respects, but we can leave it aside.

    So, yes, it seems we have reached an impasse. I am glad, however, that you find some value in A-T philosophy and thankful for the discussion because it has helped me to see more clearly the value and need of analogy in the A-T view of reality.

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  26. Sobieski:

    That view as regards being ends with embracing the Parmenidean position and absurdity.

    My case is that it is inconceivable to differentiate Being without a genus-species structure, and yet our experience indicates that Being is clearly differentiated into different types of being. Yes, this is similar to Parmenides’ arguments in that reason dictates that something is impossible, and yet we experience it regularly. The likely explanation is that there is something wrong with the arguments, especially when they are undermined by our experience, but the challenge is then to find where the arguments go awry.

    As regards your (1), a genus plus a difference makes a species. If the difference is contained within the genus, then the species and genus would be the same because the difference is contained within the genus to begin with and does not come from outside of it to diversify it. If you want to say somehow that being is diversified like a genus and not according to analogous modes, then you need to make a case. Otherwise (1) like (2) constitutes an appeal to ignorance and not a disproof of the A-T position.

    I understand why there is nothing outside of Being that could be added to Being in order to differentiate it into types of being, because there is literally nothing outside of being, and nothing can cause nothing.

    I don’t understand why you cannot say that Being is differentiated within itself to become different types of being. Take the genus of shape, and add dimensions, which results in 1-dimensional shapes, 2-dimensional shapes, 3-dimensional shapes, and so on. Your argument would imply that “dimensions” are not contained in “shape”, which is simply a geometrical figure. I think it would be hard to understand a geometrical figure without involving dimensions, and yet dimensions are a difference. Thus, it seems that one can still use a genus-species structure even if the difference is contained within the genus.

    But regardless, even if you are correct that there are good reasons to argue that Being cannot be differentiated by virtue of anything outside itself or inside itself, then that is a paradox, because clearly Being is differentiated, according to our experience. You seem to argue that the paradox is resolved by virtue of the doctrine of analogy. However, you haven’t yet given an account of analogy that does not eventually result in something that must be the same in both compared things. And in that case, then you are using the genus-species structure, which is inapplicable to the transcendentals, and for the very reasons you outlined above.

    In other words, in order to have sameness in an analogy, there must be a genus-species structure, and if there is no genus-species structure, then there is no sameness, and if there is no sameness, then there is no analogy. They all seem to hang together. If you deny this, then you would have to give an account for how you can have sameness independent of a genus-species structure, because there is the problem of how something can be shared by two things and not be a genus. For example, there is something the same in actual and potential being, i.e. Being, but there are also differences, i.e. one does exist and the other could exist, and yet, apparently, you can say all this without appealing to a genus-species structure. How can you this at all?

    Again, I wonder if this entire approach just devolves into paradox. You have a number of components that cannot combine in a consistent fashion. Analogy cannot save the day, because there are good reasons to argue that all analogy requires partial identity at some level of analysis, and that this partial identity consists of a shared genus. What else is shared, after all, between two compared terms? And if that is the case, then the transcendentals cannot be understood analogically, because they cannot be genera at all.

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  27. Sobieski:

    You can't disprove A-T on analogy by fiat. We are dealing with an exhaustive division as regards predication: univocity (sameness), equivocity (difference) and analogy (similarity). To say analogy is reducible to univocity leads to absurdity as regards being. If you want to make that claim, then the burden of proof is on you to show how it is not absurd, not on A-T and sanity. On the A-T view, there is a way to account for diversity of being and thus our common experience of reality. The idea that it is unintelligible to you stems from your assertion that analogy reduces univocity, which is question begging without proof.

    I agree that it devolves into absurdity, because analogy requires similarity, and similarity involves partial identity, which involves sameness. And sameness, as you mentioned, is univocity, and yet it cannot be univocity with similarity, and yet it must involve univocity, because it requires sameness. So, it all just eats itself up. And it gets even worse with the transcendentals, because at least we can understand that the partial identity that is a necessary component of similarity is the genus that is shared between the two compared things, and yet transcendentals cannot be genera, and thus cannot be part of a similarity relation, and thus not part of analogy. So, that’s inconsistent, as well.

    And I have not asserted that analogy reduces to univocity. I have offered a detailed argument for that position, which is not question begging.

    Here it is again:

    (1) X is identical to Y iff X has everything in common with Y.
    (2) X is different from Y iff X has nothing in common with Y.
    (3) X is similar to Y iff X has something in common with Y.

    Call the something in common S, and we see that X and Y have S in common. That gets us to:

    (4) X has S
    (5) Y has S

    The question is whether S in (4) and (5) is the same, similar or different, according to (1), (2) and (3).

    If S is the same, then S is univocal, because S means the same thing in both (4) and (5).

    If S is different, then there is no ground to the comparison at all, and there is no analogy, but only equivocation, because S means something different in both (4) and (5). Actually, we should not say S, but rather S and T, which are different.

    If S is similar, then S in X, which we can call S(X), must have something in common with S in Y, which we can call S(Y). Let us call this new something in common, S*, and thus you can write:

    (6) X has S*
    (7) Y has S*

    The question is whether S* in (6) and (7) is the same, similar, or different.

    This is right back where we started from, and it either ends in identity (or univocality), difference (or equivocation), or an infinite regress.

    That is not an assertion or begging the question. It is an argument.

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  28. Sobieski:

    Earlier you agreed that the analogy of proportion or attribution (vs. four-term analogy), which is the type of analogy St. Thomas uses to explain the modes of being found in the categories, is fine. It was the type of analogy cited in the Wippel and Owens texts where there is a primary referent (e.g., substance) to which all secondary analogs (e.g., categorical accidents) are referred. Now it seems you only agreed insofar as analogy is understaood as reducible to univocity, i.e., some identity in species or genus.

    First, my analysis above indicated that even in a four-term analogy, there must be something in common between the two comparisons in the third comparison. To repeat:

    (1) A is to B is like C is to D

    So, you have two relationships:

    (2) A to B
    (3) C to D

    And you can say that (2) is like (3) on the basis of their shared underlying relationship, or

    (4) A is to B is like C is to D by virtue of R

    In other words, because (2) contains R and (3) contains R, then you can say that (2) is like (3), i.e. they are similar, because they are neither totally the same nor totally different, but rather have partial identity and partial difference. And the “partial identity” in this case is R. And it is on the basis of this shared R that (1) is possible.

    Second, even taking a primary referent (i.e. a substance) and then secondary referents (i.e. accidents) is still the case in which there is a genus-species structure. You can start with the substance as the primary genus, and then the accidents as secondary species. You can also start with an accident as the primary genus, and then find other subdivisions as different species. Again, it does not seem that one can avoid this genus-species structure when you are making a comparison. All comparisons are supposed to be based upon connections between different things upon the Tree, and if something is off the tree, then what is the connection and how do you categorize it? You can’t, and if you can’t categorize it, then you cannot systematize it, and thus it is simply beyond our capabilities to understand. We may think we understand it, but deeper analysis results in problems that need to be resolved.

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  29. Sobieski:

    Just to sum up: Yes, I offered the similarity of relations in the categories of substance and quantity example. Then you offered the "some" parts/identity explanation of analogy in response to it. Afterwards, I responded that some common part or parts among wholes amounts to univocity at the level of parts and not analogy. That explanation does not match the similarity and difference in the common notion found between the relations in the two categories. I.e., it is not a genus or species insofar as the similarity is concerned.

    I’m confused.

    First, are you saying that no analogy ever involves univocality in the common part? For example, “life is like a box of chocolates” in that they can both surprise you. Is this not an analogy, because “surprise” is common to both in the same way?

    Second, are you talking about a special type of analogy that involves common notions that are simply not part of a genus-species structure, and thus necessarily avoids univocality? If you are, then how exactly do you understand the common notion? What do you mean by “common” here? Call this “common notion” C. Is C the same, different or similar between the compared things? It must be the same, no, or else what sense is there to the word “common”? When I say that John and Jack have a common love of baseball, then I mean that they each love baseball. If “love baseball” was not the same, then how could they share it?

    Finally, I offered the example of the mind's ability to abstract a nature or quiddity with and without precision. In abstraction without precision, the essence abstracted from a thing does not exclude its particularities, but includes them implicitly and indeterminately. In abstraction with precision, however, the essence abstracted does exclude the thing's particularities. So the essence of Fido, for example, can be considered in two ways. Abstracted without precision, Fido’s essence is dog. Abstracted with precision, however, his essence is, say, "dog-ness." Fido is not dog-ness, but has dog-ness since his essence is conceived as a part rather than as a whole in this mode.

    So, you can abstract just the universal U, or you can abstract the universal-plus-particulars U+P. Fine.

    In an analogous way, the mind in four-term analogy can consider the analogous notion ("type") leaving aside its terms ("of substance" and "of quantity") as implicit and indeterminate to see the sameness. Or it can consider the analogous notion with its terms explicit and determinate such that it sees the difference. It was just another example showing that the intellect is capable of considering one and same thing in different respects, but we can leave it aside.

    But, according to my terminology, that just means that the mind abstracts R, or the common relationship between the two comparisons being compared, i.e. X is like Y is like A is like B, because X is like Y has R and A is like B has R. In that case, one’s mind can focus just on R, or one can focus upon R-plus-particulars, or R+P.

    So what? You can see the sameness by looking at just R or by looking at R+P, because they both involve R. That is the commonality that grounds the comparison. Without R, there is no comparison, no similarity, no analogy. It is the glue that holds the relationship together. Sure, similarity necessarily involves R+P, because it is neither identity nor difference, but the mind is able to recognize that there is partial identity R and partial difference P, and it can focus upon either one. Your argument would work if you could show that it is impossible for the mind to simply abstract R without any P, because my argument is based upon the concept that R is shared by the two comparisons, and when focused upon is univocal. Sure, you can shift your focus to include P, but so what?

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  30. @dguller

    I don’t understand why you cannot say that Being is differentiated within itself to become different types of being. Take the genus of shape, and add dimensions, which results in 1-dimensional shapes, 2-dimensional shapes, 3-dimensional shapes, and so on...

    It's very simple. A difference must be added to the notion of a genus to contract it to species. Anything added to being would be outside of being. The only thing outside of being is non-being or nothing, which cannot diversify anything. Anything within being is already contained in being.

    Dimensionality falls within quantity. Shape or figure is a quality perfecting dimensionality (e.g., triangularity, sphericity, etc.). So shape is formal to dimensionality, not the other way around. Regardless, I do think that the differences of various genera can fall within the same category, though I'd have to think and read more about it, but nevertheless a difference can't be part of the notion of the genus it's composed with to define a species. A straightforward example would be the difference "rational." If it is part of the genus "animal," then all animals would by nature and definition be rational, not just human beings. But this is false.

    But regardless, even if you are correct that there are good reasons to argue that Being cannot be differentiated by virtue of anything outside itself or inside itself, then that is a paradox, because clearly Being is differentiated, according to our experience.

    Yes, that is why Aristotle says "being is said in many ways" and not "in one way." Finite being is found in the different modes that make up the categories or ultimate genera of being, but those categories cannot fall under being as under a genus for the reasons given above.

    However, you haven’t yet given an account of analogy that does not eventually result in something that must be the same in both compared things...In other words, in order to have sameness in an analogy, there must be a genus-species structure, and if there is no genus-species structure, then there is no sameness, and if there is no sameness, then there is no analogy.

    I think that analogous conception is a feature or capability of our mind. There is no proof any more than there is a proof that sense experience puts us in touch with reality or the mind performs the operations of abstraction. Basically, it is something we do and if one denies it, then the only proof is to show that it is absurd to do so (i.e., reductio ad absurdam). Dialectical defense is the only "proof" available for such ultimate notions.

    continued...

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  31. Likewise, your claim that analogy must ultimately be cashed out as a univocal likeness has no proof, but I have shown how it results in absurdity as regards our conception of being. Your whole argument, like Parmenides, is that analogy is ultimately an illusion because it reduces to some univocally same part or aspect in every case. The alternative is to say that the mind can recognize similarity among things without resorting to univocity in every case. Regardless of explanations, it is a fact that we do indeed have analogous conceptions. Sorry to repeat myself, but take this example again:

    Man is to substance as line is to quantity.

    "Type" is the common note in the two relations, but when we bring in the terms "of substance" and "of quantity," there is a the difference. On your account, "type" must be a genus, presumably of both substance and quantity, but in that case "type" could only be being itself. Yet, there is nothing outside of being to to differentiate it into various species.

    And I have not asserted that analogy reduces to univocity. I have offered a detailed argument for that position, which is not question begging.

    Here it is again:

    (1) X is identical to Y iff X has everything in common with Y.
    (2) X is different from Y iff X has nothing in common with Y.
    (3) X is similar to Y iff X has something in common with Y.

    Call the something in common S, and we see that X and Y have S in common. That gets us to:

    (4) X has S
    (5) Y has S

    The question is whether S in (4) and (5) is the same, similar or different, according to (1), (2) and (3).

    If S is the same, then S is univocal, because S means the same thing in both (4) and (5)...

    This is right back where we started from, and it either ends in identity (or univocality), difference (or equivocation), or an infinite regress.


    This most certainly is a reductionist account of analogy down to a univocally same commonality (S). The unproven assumption upon which your argument rests is that similarity in every case entails univocal sameness (S). I say that the intellect must be able to recognize and grasp similarity that is not a univocal similarity. That is the *only* option possible to account for diversity in being and avoid the Parmenidean position. If you deny this, then the onus is on you to make the case on how to avoid absolute monism. Making appeals to ignorance regarding paradoxes or the inability of the mind to grasp being are not arguments when A-T offers a perfectly good and defensible explanation that averts absurdity.

    continued...

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  32. Second, even taking a primary referent (i.e. a substance) and then secondary referents (i.e. accidents) is still the case in which there is a genus-species structure. You can start with the substance as the primary genus, and then the accidents as secondary species. You can also start with an accident as the primary genus, and then find other subdivisions as different species...

    This is deeply confused. Substance exists *in itself* and that is part of its notion as a genus. Accidents exist *in another*, viz., substance, and that is part of their respective notions. So if substance is a primary genus, under which all accidents fall, for example, then all accidents would exist in themselves. But that makes no sense.

    First, are you saying that no analogy ever involves univocality in the common part?

    Yes, for the instances of analogy we have been discussing I think that must be so. Take, "sphericity is to quality as cubicity is to quality." The commonality is "shape." Is that truly analogy? Possibly, but granting that it doesn't match the example as regards being I gave above. It doesn't somehow prove being is univocal. Further, I don't deny that there is univocal similarity or predication in some cases.

    Second, are you talking about a special type of analogy that involves common notions that are simply not part of a genus-species structure, and thus necessarily avoids univocality?

    I maintain that the analogy of being does not and cannot constitute any univocal commonality or similarity. I will grant that identity and commonality normally imply notions such as genus and species and have been using the terms more loosely, to mean "similarity." I agree there is a similarity in analogy, just not univocal simlarity as in genus or species.

    When I say that John and Jack have a common love of baseball, then I mean that they each love baseball. If “love baseball” was not the same, then how could they share it?

    This is not an apt example as "love baseball" would be the same in each case. An better example is offered by John Knasas as regards two great baseball players, Willie Mays and Sandy Koufax:

    "Mays was a renowned outfielder and hitter, Koufax was a renowned pitcher. Different as each of these things are, they nevertheless serve to make Mays and Koufax alike. How else than by describing the hitting and fielding would you begin to answer the question, Why is Mays a great baseball player like Koufax? Further, is not Koufax called great because of his pitching? But Mays' way of hitting and fielding is what just Mays possesses and not Koufax, and Koufax's pitching is simply what he possesses and not Mays. What makes both the same is also what makes both different. In these cases there is, as Gerald Phelan remarked, a sameness in the difference and a difference in the sameness." (Being and Some Twentieth Century Thomists, p. 138)

    So what? You can see the sameness by looking at just R or by looking at R+P, because they both involve R.

    We are talking past each other on this one, so I will leave it at that. It's not worth going into as the discussion is long enough as it is.

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  33. I'm sort of letting you two go at it and such, but I did catch something particularly interesting:

    Second, even taking a primary referent (i.e. a substance) and then secondary referents (i.e. accidents) is still the case in which there is a genus-species structure. You can start with the substance as the primary genus, and then the accidents as secondary species. You can also start with an accident as the primary genus, and then find other subdivisions as different species. Again, it does not seem that one can avoid this genus-species structure when you are making a comparison. All comparisons are supposed to be based upon connections between different things upon the Tree, and if something is off the tree, then what is the connection and how do you categorize it? You can’t, and if you can’t categorize it, then you cannot systematize it, and thus it is simply beyond our capabilities to understand. We may think we understand it, but deeper analysis results in problems that need to be resolved.

    Clearly here is a point of departure. You can't help put recognize the ontological priority of substance, and surely you could never say that accidents are a species of substance??

    Secondly, Being isn't off the Tree, it is the tree...

    And thirdly, why is genus/species differentiation the only way of classifying? Negative judgment seems to do as well as total abstraction of an essence...

    Carry on, Jeeves.

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  34. Sobieski:

    Yes, that is why Aristotle says "being is said in many ways" and not "in one way." Finite being is found in the different modes that make up the categories or ultimate genera of being, but those categories cannot fall under being as under a genus for the reasons given above.

    And that is a paradox, because the categories fall “under” Being, but not as they would under a genus. So, what is this “under” Being, and how does it work, if not by virtue of the genus-species structure? Ultimately, this comes down to how you can understand something that is utterly beyond your conceptual framework. Doesn’t that violate the very rules of comprehension? It would be like saying that a triangle has three sides, but there is a four sided triangle existing beyond the category of shapes. It is just incoherent.

    I think that analogous conception is a feature or capability of our mind. There is no proof any more than there is a proof that sense experience puts us in touch with reality or the mind performs the operations of abstraction. Basically, it is something we do and if one denies it, then the only proof is to show that it is absurd to do so (i.e., reductio ad absurdam). Dialectical defense is the only "proof" available for such ultimate notions.

    First, I didn’t ask for a “proof”, but only an “account” of how analogy is supposed to work, and what the rules are that it operates according to. And just saying that it happens, despite being inconceivable, is just as good as saying that the objective brain causes subjective experiences even though we cannot understand how this is even possible.

    Second, I do not deny that analogy is possible, but only that it is possible independent of the genus-species structure. In order to have an analogy, there must be a connection between two things, and that connection is supposed to be the partial identity that they share in common. It is incoherent to say that there is nothing shared in common, and yet still have an analogy. Either there is something shared in common or there isn’t. If the former, then an account must be made about what this something shared in common is, and if the latter, then analogy falls apart.

    Likewise, your claim that analogy must ultimately be cashed out as a univocal likeness has no proof, but I have shown how it results in absurdity as regards our conception of being. Your whole argument, like Parmenides, is that analogy is ultimately an illusion because it reduces to some univocally same part or aspect in every case. The alternative is to say that the mind can recognize similarity among things without resorting to univocity in every case. Regardless of explanations, it is a fact that we do indeed have analogous conceptions.

    First, my claim that analogy ultimately reduces to univocality does have an argument, because I have shown an argument where analogy must terminate either in univocal meaning or infinite regress. If you think it is a fallacious argument, then show me where I have gone wrong, either with in assumptions or the inferences I made based upon them. The best that you have done is shown that analogy involving Being cannot terminate in univocal meaning, because Being is not a genus. It does not necessarily mean that my argument is wrong. It may be the case that we cannot understand Being via analogy at all, and only think we understand it, but really it is beyond our conceptual abilities. We are using the word “Being”, but have no understanding of its content. Or maybe there is another way of understanding Being, other than analogy. Or maybe an infinite regress is acceptable. So, there’s a lot of options to consider, but the bottom line is that there is something wrong with using analogy to understand Being, according to Thomist principles.

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  35. Sobieski:

    Second, just “to say that the mind can recognize similarity among things without resorting to univocity in every case” as a brute fact is unacceptable, at least without some account of what “similarity” means in this situation. I have offered my definition, and have based my argument upon it. Here it is, again: X is similar to Y iff X has something in common with Y. What is your definition of “similar”?

    Third, it is possible that we think we have “analogous conceptions”, but they are ultimately incoherent at a deeper level of analysis. Many beliefs have superficial plausibility, but are ultimately rendered false, either via logical argument or empirical testing. I don’t see why this may not be happening here.

    This most certainly is a reductionist account of analogy down to a univocally same commonality (S). The unproven assumption upon which your argument rests is that similarity in every case entails univocal sameness (S).

    I do not assume this. It is a conclusion of an argument. My only assumptions are what “same”, “similar” and “different” mean. My only assertion is that X is like Y, and then on the basis of my assumed definitions, I concluded that you either end your analysis in univocal meaning or infinite regress. You are confusing the conclusion with the assumption.

    I say that the intellect must be able to recognize and grasp similarity that is not a univocal similarity. That is the *only* option possible to account for diversity in being and avoid the Parmenidean position. If you deny this, then the onus is on you to make the case on how to avoid absolute monism. Making appeals to ignorance regarding paradoxes or the inability of the mind to grasp being are not arguments when A-T offers a perfectly good and defensible explanation that averts absurdity.

    A-T does not offer a good explanation. It just asserts that something happens, which reason says is impossible. How can X and Y share S, and yet S is not the same between them? What does “sharing S” even mean in that case? And what do you mean by “similar”? The whole thing is a mess, as far as I am concerned, because you are stuck with a contradiction somewhere, and have to give up an essential principle. You either have to assert that Being is a genus, which is irrational, or assert that two things can have something in common, which has nothing in common, which is equally irrational. You have chosen to assert the latter horn, and are happy to do so, but I think that you are still skewered upon it.

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  36. Josh:

    Being isn't off the Tree, it is the tree

    How can you even say that, if our language is restricted by the categories that are supposed to reflect the structure of reality?

    And thirdly, why is genus/species differentiation the only way of classifying? Negative judgment seems to do as well as total abstraction of an essence...

    Can you elaborate? I’m interested.

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  37. How can you even say that, if our language is restricted by the categories that are supposed to reflect the structure of reality?

    For the same reason I can use finite words to express an infinite concept? Same thing signified, different mode of signifying?

    In speaking of Being, our language pretty clearly isn't restricted by the categories, so......I don't follow you.

    Can you elaborate? I’m interested.

    If you'll agree that we know that a thing is before we know what it is, then we can understand that our knowledge of Being comes to us primarily through judgment, through composition of an act with something. And this is the beginning of the basis for the common concept of Being.

    E.g., the knowledge of 'white' is obtained through abstraction/simple apprehension from a white body. But being is not an essential 'property' or thing in the essence; it's not in anyone's essence "to be" (excepting you know who). Therefore, it's not abstracted as a quiddity like 'white' is, and therefore the common concept can't be formed the same way.

    So when I say that negative judgment can be used to separate two "types" of being, it's like comparing two judgments as opposed to two essences like 'white' and 'man.'

    X is that which exists in itself (Substance)
    Y is not that which exists in itself. (Accident)

    Through a negative judgment of what is ontologically prior, we have a division of Being, not according to an abstract essence, but the acts of existence themselves.

    I realize this is pretty abstruse, but I trust we can get to a common understanding.

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  38. Sobieski:

    Mays was a renowned outfielder and hitter, Koufax was a renowned pitcher. Different as each of these things are, they nevertheless serve to make Mays and Koufax alike. How else than by describing the hitting and fielding would you begin to answer the question, Why is Mays a great baseball player like Koufax? Further, is not Koufax called great because of his pitching? But Mays' way of hitting and fielding is what just Mays possesses and not Koufax, and Koufax's pitching is simply what he possesses and not Mays. What makes both the same is also what makes both different. In these cases there is, as Gerald Phelan remarked, a sameness in the difference and a difference in the sameness

    I’m not convinced by this analysis.

    What makes both the same is that they exemplified their functions in the baseball team in order to win games. Sure, their functions were different, i.e. Mays was a hitter and Koufax was a pitcher, but they were both part of a baseball team, and had particular roles in the baseball team, which they fulfilled to a large extent. I mean, is it simply unintelligible to say any of this? Is it impossible to abstract from “great hitter” and “great pitcher” to get “exemplified their role in a baseball team with the purpose of winning games”? Sure, there are particular differences, but we are talking about the sameness.

    There seems to be an argument in play whereby it is impossible to conceive of sameness without difference and difference without sameness. They are necessary connected. Now, I agree that in reality, they may be connected, but certainly we can conceptually analyze and differentiate that which exists as a whole in reality by focusing upon different aspects of that unified thing. We can talk about matter independent of form even though matter cannot exist independent of form, because form actualizes matter, and matter instantiates form. And even if our minds necessarily kept differences in mind when discussing sameness, then that could be a quirk of our minds, just like when we talk about triangularity, we cannot help but think about a particular triangle that is an imperfect instantiation of triangularity. It does not follow that there is no such thing as triangularity, or that we are not thinking about triangularity and not a specific triangle.

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  39. Josh:

    For the same reason I can use finite words to express an infinite concept? Same thing signified, different mode of signifying?

    But infinity can be a kind of quantity or quality, which are categories. So, that doesn’t quite work, because it is an example that can be handled by the categories. Also, I thought the categories are supposed to be the expressions of Being in reality, which our minds have discovered. Perhaps Being is akin to Kant’s noumena, which are simply beyond our comprehension, and yet are necessarily postulated in an inherent tension in which they are both necessary but also impossible.

    In speaking of Being, our language pretty clearly isn't restricted by the categories, so......I don't follow you.

    First, if you are saying that we can talk about something beyond the categories, then how exactly can we do this?

    Second, what exactly are the categories supposed to be?

    X is that which exists in itself (Substance)
    Y is not that which exists in itself. (Accident)


    Except that God also “exists in itself”, and yet is not a substance, and both potential being and non-being do not “exist it itself”, which means that that which does not exist in itself is not coextensive with “accident”. Sure, negation does add to knowledge by putting a boundary between what is inside a set and what is outside a set. However, the remaining set may still be overwhelmingly large and thus the limitation in possibilities may not amount to much.

    Furthermore, perhaps the limitation does not add much, such as “immaterial”. What does it mean? I don’t know, other than to say that it is nothing but form independent of matter. But how does form exist immaterially? Who knows? Is it in space-time? It shouldn’t be, because only material beings exist in space-time. And if that is the case, then how does something outside of space-time – whatever that means – interact with what is within space-time without actually entering into space-time? And if it just affects the boundary of space-time, then how does that work? Or maybe it does exist in space-time, and if it does, then how does it?

    Through a negative judgment of what is ontologically prior, we have a division of Being, not according to an abstract essence, but the acts of existence themselves.

    I’m not following here.

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  40. @dguller

    I've said my part and am getting off the merry-go-round.

    @Josh

    If you have any comments, suggestions or corrections re: my arguments for A-T analogy, I would be interested to hear them.

    I think what you are saying about McInerny's account of the difference between Scotus and Aquinas is quite interesting. I do need to read more on this topic in the secondary literature. It seems to me the "mode" of being is precisely what is not explicable in terms of a univocal sameness. Further, it would also seem to be something that the intellect has a "built-in" capacity to grasp or recognize as regards the being of things.

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  41. Sobieski:

    Thanks for the conversation.

    Take care.

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  42. Sobieski,

    Cheers! I certainly wouldn't take it upon myself to correct you on anything you've said.

    Dguller,

    What was asked was how Being can retain a common concept in our minds yet not be of the genus/species mode. The answer is, as you almost put it:

    Sure, negation does add to knowledge by putting a boundary between what is inside a set and what is outside a set.

    Except negation can differentiate Being within itself as well, and this adds to our knowledge.

    As to the rest of your questions/counters, my examples weren't meant to be exhaustive at all; and I really don't think I need to explicate why/what the categories exist for to answer the above question, which grounds analogical predication of the common concept.

    which means that that which does not exist in itself is not coextensive with “accident”

    You missed the point; the negation of the particular judgment 'Substance is that which exists in itself' is that which grounds the knowledge of Accident as a distinct mode. That isn't to say there is not another mode which corresponds to another negation of a judgment within Being to arrive at another distinction of mode, e.g between God and Creature, Potential and Actual, etc.

    But how does form exist immaterially?

    I don't understand; are you looking for a material explanation to this question? This question seems beneath your level of understanding, along with your subsequent iteration of the interaction "problem".

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  43. ...cont.

    I’m not following here.

    "Thus whereas the quidditative divisions of being according to genera and species follow upon the essences of beings, the categorical divisions of being according to modes of existing follow upon their acts of existing, while the transcendental properties of being follow upon the being taken as a whole, embracing both its essence and its existence...ultimately, not only categorical modes of existing but all modes of being are predicated in one view or other of a being's act of existing: a being is called a being because it has an act of existing; a being is called a substance because it has its act of existing in itself and not in something else; it is a thing because it has existence conformed to a quiddity or essence; it is one because it has an undivided act of existing; and so on."

    "...the limitation of being is necessarily based on being itself (that is, on negations of being), unlike the division of a genus by extrinsic differences."

    --"Aquinas's Division of Being According to Modes of Existing," John Tomarchio

    This is why the genus/species classification doesn't apply to Being as a common concept, which grounds why Being can be predicated analogically, which was the original question under consideration.

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  44. Josh:

    Except negation can differentiate Being within itself as well, and this adds to our knowledge.

    So, could negation be the principle by which Being is differentiated within itself? In other words, could that be the difference that can allow Being to be a genus? Sobieski said that a genus plus a difference becomes a species, and the difference cannot be contained within the genus, but rather must come from outside of it. That is why Being cannot be a genus, i.e. there is nothing outside of Being that could act as a difference. However, it seems that negation could be the difference within Being that results in different kinds of Being:

    (1) Potential being  something that could exist
    (2) Actual being  something that already exists
    (3) Necessary being  something that (a) already exists, and (b) must exist
    (4) Contingent being  something that (a) already exists, and (b) could not exist
    (5) Substantial being  something that exists in itself
    (6) Accidental being  something that exists in substantial being

    By setting limits and boundaries within Being, we can differentiate it into its different kinds. Does that make it a genus? Do we have to re-think what counts as a genus and a species, in order to accommodate Being?

    You missed the point; the negation of the particular judgment 'Substance is that which exists in itself' is that which grounds the knowledge of Accident as a distinct mode. That isn't to say there is not another mode which corresponds to another negation of a judgment within Being to arrive at another distinction of mode, e.g between God and Creature, Potential and Actual, etc.

    I see. So you start with a totality, and then say, “It is not X”, which eliminates all X’s, and then you say that it is not Y, which eliminates all Y’s, and this process of elimination eventually narrows down the possibilities, and thus increases our knowledge.

    My question is that the Thomist theory of knowledge is the presence of a form in an immaterial intellect. That’s all there is to it. So, how does the process of negation result in the acquisition of a form?

    I mean, say you are trying to get to knowledge about dogs. You would have to abstract the form of “dogness” from particular material dogs. Now, how would negation increase your knowledge? You can say that “dogness” is not a vegetable or a mineral, say, which leaves you with a number of possible forms, including that of animals, angels, God, numbers, and so on. Did the negation give you the form of “dogness”? No, it did not, and thus, according to Thomism, you do not have knowledge. And how can negation ground knowledge at all, when knowledge is defined as the acquisition of a form, which one does not seem to be able to acquire via negation?

    I don't understand; are you looking for a material explanation to this question? This question seems beneath your level of understanding, along with your subsequent iteration of the interaction "problem".

    I have a hard time understanding how an immaterial form can exist independently of an intellect. I understand that there is no material explanation, but there is clearly a formal and final explanation, and possibly an efficient explanation. Perhaps I just haven’t internalized the four causes enough. I was just making the point that negation may add to our knowledge, but it is not always knowledge, which should be something positive as the result of the reiterative negations. And I do not have a positive understanding of immaterial forms independent of an intellect, especially if they are supposed to be efficient causes in and of themselves within the world.

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  45. By setting limits and boundaries within Being, we can differentiate it into its different kinds. Does that make it a genus? Do we have to re-think what counts as a genus and a species, in order to accommodate Being?

    It does not make it a genus as univocally considered with what constitutes the 'genus' of genus and species, i.e., predication of essences. See the distinction in my previous quote. We don't have to re-think the genus and species arrangement at all, we just have to understand that's not all there is. There's no shoe-horning Being into it, is all.

    Note than in those 6 examples you provide, you can formulate judgments in propositions that set each aside from each other.

    So, how does the process of negation result in the acquisition of a form?

    The formal perfection of Being comes into the intellect by way of judgment, i.e., knowing that something is, and the intellect understands that form according to different modes of existing, but these aren't essences in themselves. That would just confound existence/essence.

    I mean, say you are trying to get to knowledge about dogs. You would have to abstract the form of “dogness” from particular material dogs. Now, how would negation increase your knowledge? You can say that “dogness” is not a vegetable or a mineral, say, which leaves you with a number of possible forms, including that of animals, angels, God, numbers, and so on.

    But I am not committed to saying negation adds to our knowledge in that case, as you are explicitly talking about essences and the genus/species classification, which is extrinsically differentiated. Negation is not a thing that differentiates as an essence in itself that we compare to another essence, like dogness with whiteness, rather, it's the judgment of being with respect to the two, is and is not.

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  46. Josh:

    Also, I still think that there is an interaction problem if you want to say that the intellect is immaterial and can exist independently of the body, albeit in an imperfect fashion, because it requires bodily organs to supply the sensory information that universals are abstracted from. Regardless, you have to explain how this imperfect immaterial intellect exists independently of the body, and how it interacts with it. After all, the intellect and the body are not necessarily a total unit, if they are separable in reality, and if they are separable, then you have the interaction problem.

    "Thus whereas the quidditative divisions of being according to genera and species follow upon the essences of beings, the categorical divisions of being according to modes of existing follow upon their acts of existing, while the transcendental properties of being follow upon the being taken as a whole, embracing both its essence and its existence...ultimately, not only categorical modes of existing but all modes of being are predicated in one view or other of a being's act of existing: a being is called a being because it has an act of existing; a being is called a substance because it has its act of existing in itself and not in something else; it is a thing because it has existence conformed to a quiddity or essence; it is one because it has an undivided act of existing; and so on."

    Let me flesh this out.

    You have the following:

    (1) Quidditative divisions of being, according to genera and species, which are due to the essences of beings.
    (2) Categorical divisions of being, according to modes of existing, which are due to their acts of existing.
    (3) Transcendental properties of being, which is due to being taken as a totality, and embracing its essence and existence.

    It seems that (1) is just about the essences of individual beings, or what they are, and (2) is just about acts of existence of individual beings, or how they happen to instantiated in existence. I’m unclear about (3), because “being taken as a totality” could either mean Being Itself, or God, or the combination of God plus creation, which also exists as a part of Being. Both God and creation have transcendental properties, perfect in the former and imperfect in the latter. So, does (3) refer to just God or God plus his creation?

    "...the limitation of being is necessarily based on being itself (that is, on negations of being), unlike the division of a genus by extrinsic differences."

    What exactly is being negated within Being? In other words, when you say not-X, what is X?

    This is why the genus/species classification doesn't apply to Being as a common concept, which grounds why Being can be predicated analogically, which was the original question under consideration.

    I still don’t understand how this works. So, Being is not a genus, but is a “common concept”? What is a “common concept”? Is it a form?

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  47. josh:

    It does not make it a genus as univocally considered with what constitutes the 'genus' of genus and species, i.e., predication of essences. See the distinction in my previous quote. We don't have to re-think the genus and species arrangement at all, we just have to understand that's not all there is. There's no shoe-horning Being into it, is all.

    But Being has an essence, i.e. a whatness that defines what it is, i.e. That Which Exists. In fact, if Being is identical to God, then certainly God has a nature and essence and form. So, either essences are entirely captured by the genus-species structure, or they are not. If the former, then Being must be a part of that structure, which leads to absurd conclusions. If the latter, then there are essences that are beyond the genus-species structure. In that case, what is the rationale for limiting univocality to the genus-species structure. I mean, if we can talk about the essence of Being, and you have conceded that we can talk about something beyond the categories, then it is possible to meaning independent of the genus-species structure.

    And in that case, then why not just say that univocal is when you mean the same thing when using the same word in different sentences? Sure, this is typically the case with genus-species structures, but it now seems that there are broader structures in which the genus-species structure is just one particular example. And why not extend meaning to these broader structures rather than limiting to the narrow genus-species structure? And in that case, is there any objection to saying that when you are talking about what is common between actual being and potential being, i.e. Being, you are speaking univocally? Sure, it is beyond the genus-species structure, but now there is a whole new structure that is involved and we can meaningfully talk about.

    The formal perfection of Being comes into the intellect by way of judgment, i.e., knowing that something is, and the intellect understands that form according to different modes of existing, but these aren't essences in themselves. That would just confound existence/essence.

    Does each mode of existing have its own form? I mean, the only things in the intellect are different forms, right? It is an immaterial extractor of forms (i.e. active intellect) and a repository of those extracted forms (i.e. passive intellect). There is nothing else supposed to be going on. So, how can a mode of existing occur in the intellect without there being a form for that mode of existing? And if there is a form for that, then what is the problem with there being a form for whatever is common between two compared things? And why can’t that form be the same between those two things?

    But I am not committed to saying negation adds to our knowledge in that case, as you are explicitly talking about essences and the genus/species classification, which is extrinsically differentiated. Negation is not a thing that differentiates as an essence in itself that we compare to another essence, like dogness with whiteness, rather, it's the judgment of being with respect to the two, is and is not.

    First, again, you have the problem that if the judgment of being does not involve essences, or forms, then Aquinas would not count it as knowledge, which is just the acquisition of forms by an immaterial intellect. No forms, no knowledge.

    Second, do you mean by “judgment of being”, the interpretation by the mind regarding whether it is true that X exists or X does not exist? In other words, it has nothing to do with essence or form, but only with existence, and whether it is present or absent with regards to X. My problem with this account is that you cannot say that X exists without also saying what X is. I mean, look at this sentence: “X exists”. What do you know? Nothing without me telling you what X is, because X could be anything.

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  48. Dguller,

    Also, I still think that there is an interaction problem if you want to say that the intellect is immaterial and can exist independently of the body, albeit in an imperfect fashion, because it requires bodily organs to supply the sensory information that universals are abstracted from.

    Gotcha. That's probably a topic for a different day.

    So, does (3) refer to just God or God plus his creation?

    Refers to the properties of Being considered as transcendental: One, True, Good. These encompass Being as a whole as opposed to considering essences over existences or vice versa.

    What exactly is being negated within Being? In other words, when you say not-X, what is X?

    With respect to the divisions of Being in (2) as you put it there, it's acts of existence. And the negations that serve to divide in the mind can be seen in the 6 propositions you included in your previous post.

    I still don’t understand how this works. So, Being is not a genus, but is a “common concept”? What is a “common concept”? Is it a form?

    We apprehend an essence or form or potentiality or concept through simple apprehension, abstracting away things to form the concept.
    But when Being is the concept or formal perfection, we are understanding not through simple apprehension, but judgment primarily, which alone includes the understanding/affirmation that something is or is not.

    As in, we are taking in Being when we know that something is, prior to knowing what it is. It's not an essence/form that we abstract.

    That comes after, when the intellect forms a concept that arises as a result of considering the act of existence in judgment, which is common to all.

    So you can have 'animality' as a form abstracted from an individual. And that's part of an essence. But that animal's act of existence is not part of its essence to be abstracted, rather it is a function of existence in union with the essence. So how do we arrive at the concept without a property to abstract from an essence? By way of affirming or denying existence to the essence through judgment, which in turn implies negations in the mind, which in turn provides distinctions which allow a meaningful concept to be formed which can apply to all beings according to different modes.

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  49. But Being has an essence, i.e. a whatness that defines what it is, i.e. That Which Exists

    There is a difference between saying that Being has an essence and Being is essence.

    And in that case, is there any objection to saying that when you are talking about what is common between actual being and potential being, i.e. Being, you are speaking univocally?

    See distinction between Scotus/Aquinas on the meaning of univocal above.

    Does each mode of existing have its own form?

    I've never denied that conceptualization of Being takes place, but simply that it doesn't follow the same process as whiteness would, for example.

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  50. Forget that last post. Let me see if I can't make this clearer:

    Socrates is a man.

    Here we have a judgment, where a subject has something predicated of him. From this, we can apprehend the concept or "form" of Being to reside in the intellect, as you will, to shape our knowledge, and enable analogical predication. How? We have to consider the meaning of 'is' in the judgment.

    Humanity [has an (essential) act of existence] in Socrates.

    We can take that bit out to get at a composite concept of being, and abstract further to get at the abstract common thing signified among all beings, act of existence. But the complete meaning is found in the intellect's use of judgment, as opposed to a concept like whiteness, where the complete meaning can be found in simple apprehension of the concept in itself.

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  51. @dguller

    Same to you. Thanks for the conversation and take care.

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  52. Josh:

    Gotcha. That's probably a topic for a different day.

    Ha! So be it.

    Refers to the properties of Being considered as transcendental: One, True, Good. These encompass Being as a whole as opposed to considering essences over existences or vice versa.

    First, transcendentals are properties of Being, considered under different aspects, and that all beings share. They are beyond the categories altogether due to their utter generality, which makes them beyond the genus-species structure. They include: thing, one, true, good, and something. They come together in something like, the degree to which a particular thing actualizes its nature is the degree to which that particular thing is considered true and good. “True” and “good” are just our labels for how much a thing perfects its nature, which is coextensive with the degree to which it actualizes the potentiality in its nature, so really there is just individual things with specific natures, each striving in a teleological fashion, to actualize their potential natures. That is reality, and “goodness” and “truth” are just our way of talking about this reality, which I think means that we can do without them, as they are just words that paraphrase what is really happening.

    Second, we can talk about all of this coherently. My argument is that this common core of the transcendentals -- the degree to which a particular thing actualizes its nature, and you can choose to include or ignore “truth” and “goodness” here -- has a univocal meaning, because it applies to all things identically, even though they may differ in terms of how they go about actualizing their nature, what their nature is, the degree to which they actualize their nature, whether they have any potential at all left over, and so on. These are all differences, but they share the common core, which we can speak of, even though it is beyond the Tree. Why not say that we mean the same thing when discussing different beings? It seems irrelevant whether this is part of the Tree or not.

    Third, I don’t see how you can avoid talking about essences and existence when focusing upon the whole of Being. The totality of Being involves particular beings striving to actualize their natures, and thus you have essence (i.e. their natures) and existence (i.e. actualization) involved. It doesn’t seem to be avoidable since the whole thing hangs together in a holistic fashion.

    With respect to the divisions of Being in (2) as you put it there, it's acts of existence. And the negations that serve to divide in the mind can be seen in the 6 propositions you included in your previous post.

    So, “acts of existence” are what are negated in Being. How does that work? You have the totality of what exists, which includes what is actually existing, and what could exist, but does not, i.e. potential being. How does this division happen by negation? You start with “what is”, and then you say the negation, which is “what is not”, but this could include either potential being or non-being. How do you negate “what is not” to get these two further divisions? When you negate “what is not”, you just get “what is”.

    Maybe to get to potential you have to add the following negation, neither “what is not” nor “what is”? I don’t think that works, because it has the structure that violates the law of non-contradiction. In other words, it is not-(p or not-p), which is incoherent. You don’t get to potential being, unless you take something from both “what is” and “what is not” and create a new division, i.e. potential being. But that is not negation, that is cutting and pasting, so to speak. And I don’t think you can do this at all without already having the concept of “what could be”. So, where did this concept come from, if not via negation?

    I don’t think negation is enough to account for these divisions in Being. There are already divisions, which negation can add to.

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  53. Josh:

    But when Being is the concept or formal perfection, we are understanding not through simple apprehension, but judgment primarily, which alone includes the understanding/affirmation that something is or is not.

    I don’t understand. Judgment is the faculty that can assert whether X exists or not. Fine. But it seems that judgment presupposes the concept of Being in order to be able to make that assertion at all. So, is it a priori, and completely independent of our experience? I mean, to affirm whether X exists, I must already have the concepts of Being and Negation. Where did these concepts come from?

    As in, we are taking in Being when we know that something is, prior to knowing what it is. It's not an essence/form that we abstract.

    But how can you know that something exists before you know what it is. Like I said above, say I say “X exists”. What do you know? Nothing. X could be anything. You know as much as if I had said “X does not exist”. Again, X could be anything. X must have content before you can assert its existence. Sure, the concept of X must exist before you can affirm whether X actually exists. I would agree with that, but that would keep everything in the mind rather than in external reality.

    So you can have 'animality' as a form abstracted from an individual. And that's part of an essence. But that animal's act of existence is not part of its essence to be abstracted, rather it is a function of existence in union with the essence. So how do we arrive at the concept without a property to abstract from an essence? By way of affirming or denying existence to the essence through judgment, which in turn implies negations in the mind, which in turn provides distinctions which allow a meaningful concept to be formed which can apply to all beings according to different modes.

    Again, how can you affirm or deny existence to an essence “through judgment” without already having the essence in mind? It seems that abstracting the form from a particular being is necessary before the judgment can do its thing. You need the concept in order to apply affirmation or negation to it in the judgment. In other words, you need the common concept before the judgment can act, and thus the common concept of Being cannot reside in the judgment, unless it is an a priori part of our cognitive apparatus that is just built in. But if it is part of our judgment, and we can extract the concept from our judgment by virtue of our intellect’s capabilities, then we can have a concept of Being, and can talk about Being. In that case, why can’t we talk about the same meaning of Being when talking about what actual being and potential being have in common? Again, the genus-species issue is irrelevant here. What objection is left?

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  54. Josh:

    See distinction between Scotus/Aquinas on the meaning of univocal above.

    I have, and agree with Aquinas that when it comes to meaning, you must take the sense into account, as well as the reference. However, I don’t see why you cannot find a common sense and reference to Being when you are talking about what actual being and potential being have in common. Maybe focus upon what can or does exist as the common concept?

    Of course, this raises all kinds of other issues. If God is outside of space-time, and can perceive all events in space-time as a 4-dimensional totality, then what sense is there about what could exist? I mean, an acorn could become an oak within space-time, but when the total space-time continuum is taken into account, an acorn that didn’t become an oak, never could have become one at all? This gets into predestination issues, which complies our ideas about possibility and potentiality. In reality, there is only what has happened in space-time, and that is actual from outside space-time in the divine perspective. Where does possibility come from, except perhaps from human ignorance within space-time? And then possibility is not an ontological category, but an epistemological one.

    We can take that bit out to get at a composite concept of being, and abstract further to get at the abstract common thing signified among all beings, act of existence. But the complete meaning is found in the intellect's use of judgment, as opposed to a concept like whiteness, where the complete meaning can be found in simple apprehension of the concept in itself.

    I don’t see the relevance to how many steps it takes to get the concept. Whether it is directly through apprehension, or through a further process of judgment, the bottom line is the final product, i.e. the concept. After all is said and done, you have a concept of Being. My question is when we are talking about this concept of Being, the one that is shared by both potential being and actual being, why can’t we mean the same thing? Like you keep saying, that something exists is distinct conceptually from how it exists, which is actually a mixed concept that combines elements of existence and essence, kind of like potential being combines elements of actual being and non-being.

    What do you think?

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  55. Dguller,

    You bring up a multitude of issues, most of which I am not competent to answer. I see a clear line of demarcation here though:

    But how can you know that something exists before you know what it is. Like I said above, say I say “X exists”. What do you know? Nothing. X could be anything. You know as much as if I had said “X does not exist”. Again, X could be anything. X must have content before you can assert its existence.

    Are you saying that X exists and X does not exist are equal in terms of knowledge of a thing? I don't see how that follows at all. An act of existing is a positive thing, even though it's indeterminate in essence.

    On the other, I'll just say that if you can predicate Being with an identical sense and reference, where 'sense' is taken as mode/act of being, then Scotus contra Aquinas is settled. I have yet to see this happen. Your argument against Knasas' baseball example could serve as a useful way to illustrate the difference.

    You say:
    What makes both the same is that they exemplified their functions in the baseball team in order to win games. Sure, their functions were different, i.e. Mays was a hitter and Koufax was a pitcher, but they were both part of a baseball team, and had particular roles in the baseball team, which they fulfilled to a large extent. I mean, is it simply unintelligible to say any of this? Is it impossible to abstract from “great hitter” and “great pitcher” to get “exemplified their role in a baseball team with the purpose of winning games”? Sure, there are particular differences, but we are talking about the sameness.

    Can you not see here that there is a difference in the very sameness, that "exemplification of their functions" invites an understanding that must include hitting and pitching as an understanding of the term 'exemplification'? Univocality would demand that what makes each analogate a 'great baseball player' be the same, identical; but what makes Mays great just is his hitting/fielding, and what makes Koufax great just is his pitching. If you abstract those differences out, you just imply circularity; i.e., what makes each a great baseball player is that each is a great baseball player.

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  56. Josh:

    Are you saying that X exists and X does not exist are equal in terms of knowledge of a thing? I don't see how that follows at all. An act of existing is a positive thing, even though it's indeterminate in essence.

    This is not particularly relevant, but I would say that it depends upon the context. As you mentioned, negation can be a source of knowledge, and knowing that something does not exist can be more significant than knowing that something does exist, in some settings. For example, knowing that there are no monsters under the bed can be quite important to a child who is frightened.

    But I would agree that to say that X exists is to say something positive, i.e. affirming that something is truly the case in reality, rather than the absence of something, which is a negation. However, as mentioned earlier on this thread, something that does not exist can have a positive impact upon existent beings. For example, a hole is characterized by the absence of solid earth, and one can fall and injure oneself in that hole, which is something real that happens.

    On the other, I'll just say that if you can predicate Being with an identical sense and reference, where 'sense' is taken as mode/act of being, then Scotus contra Aquinas is settled. I have yet to see this happen. Your argument against Knasas' baseball example could serve as a useful way to illustrate the difference.

    Let’s have a look.

    Can you not see here that there is a difference in the very sameness, that "exemplification of their functions" invites an understanding that must include hitting and pitching as an understanding of the term 'exemplification'? Univocality would demand that what makes each analogate a 'great baseball player' be the same, identical; but what makes Mays great just is his hitting/fielding, and what makes Koufax great just is his pitching. If you abstract those differences out, you just imply circularity; i.e., what makes each a great baseball player is that each is a great baseball player.

    I disagree. There are three different claims here, and the logic of each is different.

    (1) X is a great baseball player.
    (2) X is a great pitcher.
    (3) Y is a great baseball player.
    (4) Y is a great hitter.

    A baseball player is someone who plays on a baseball team and fulfills a particular role on that team. There are a number of roles, such as hitter, catcher, pitcher, outfielder, and so on. If anyone excels in any of these roles, i.e. maximally actualizes the nature of that role by attaining the final end, then they can be called “great”. That is all it means.

    All great pitchers are necessarily great baseball players, because all pitchers are baseball players. All great hitters are necessarily great baseball players, because all hitters are baseball players. What makes them great is that they excel in their respective roles on the team, i.e. pitching and catching.

    When you want to say that (2) is analogous to (4), then this is possible, because (2) implies (1), and (4) implies (3), and both (1) and (3) have the same meaning of “baseball player”, i.e. someone who plays on a baseball team and fulfills a particular role. “Great” in terms of (1) and (3) is that they maximally fulfill their purpose on the team, i.e. actualizes their nature towards their final end. That is the sameness that makes the analogy possible. Of course, there are differences, because their roles on the team are different, but so what? That is why it is an analogy and not an identity. However, you can still narrow your focus upon the commonality, which is that they are both great baseball players.

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  57. Josh:

    Seriously, when someone says that X is a great baseball player, do you not understand what they mean? You understand that X has maximally fulfilled their role on the team. That’s all “great baseball player means”. Sure, you can flesh it out some more by asking what exactly they did on the team that was so great, and that may be pitching, catching, or whatever, but that is focusing upon the species, as it were, when the original remark was about the genus. Unless you want to say that you cannot talk about the genus without including the species, then I’m not too sure where you can go with this. I mean, if you want to say that it is impossible to talk about general abstractions without including concrete particulars, then you’ve undermined logic and mathematics.

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  58. A baseball player is someone who plays on a baseball team and fulfills a particular role on that team. There are a number of roles, such as hitter, catcher, pitcher, outfielder, and so on. If anyone excels in any of these roles, i.e. maximally actualizes the nature of that role by attaining the final end, then they can be called “great”. That is all it means.

    Of course that's all it means, considered absolutely in itself, as a simply apprehended concept. Then when you apply that to two different roles, the predication of said concept becomes analogical by virtue of the sameness within the difference.

    'Great baseball player' in itself is indeterminate to a particular role, until you predicate it of a subject that instantiates the predicate in a determinate role.

    Of course I understand the indeterminate concept; the point is how it's predicated.

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  59. Quoting Knasas:

    How else than by describing the hitting and fielding would you begin to answer the question, Why is Mays a great baseball player like Koufax? Further, is not Koufax called great because
    of his pitching?


    Here you'd presumably say, "they both exemplify their roles to win games," but that doesn't answer the question at all. It's just answering "What makes them great baseball players," with words that are synonymous with "great baseball player." Which of course answers nothing.

    But Mays’ way of hitting and fielding is what just Mays possesses and not Koufax, and Koufax’s pitching is simply
    what he possesses and not Mays. So to find what makes both the
    same, you have to go to the very things that differentiate both.


    The key here: the common indeterminate concept contracts to each individual's determinate role, which is different between the two when it's predicated.

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  60. Josh:

    Of course that's all it means, considered absolutely in itself, as a simply apprehended concept. Then when you apply that to two different roles, the predication of said concept becomes analogical by virtue of the sameness within the difference.

    Like I said many times before:

    (1) X has the following properties --> A, B, C, D
    (2) Y has the following properties --> A, B, E, F

    When you say that X is like Y, you are saying that they are partially the same (i.e. both have A and B), and partially different (i.e. X does not have E and F, and Y does not have C and D). Of course, X is not identical to Y, because they differ in some properties, and of course, X is not totally different from Y, because they share some properties together. Similar means “sameness within the difference”. We don’t disagree about this.

    Where we differ is that I think that you can further say:

    (3) X has A
    (4) Y has A

    And that A means the same thing in both. You claim that that is impossible, because X has some different properties than Y, and I find that difficult to understand. After all, I am not saying that X is the same as Y. That would be identity, not similarity. I am saying that there are aspects or parts of X that are the same as aspects or parts of Y, and those aspects or parts are the same, even though X and Y may differ in other aspects or parts.

    'Great baseball player' in itself is indeterminate to a particular role, until you predicate it of a subject that instantiates the predicate in a determinate role.

    But that is like saying that “animal” is indeterminate to a specific animal until you predicate it of a particular animal. Really? So, you cannot just talk about “animal” in general without bringing in particular animals? And how can you talk about “animal” without also talking about “vegetable”? And how can you talk about “vegetable” without talking about animate versus inanimate entities? So, to talk about anything, you have to bring in everything? That doesn’t seem right.

    Here you'd presumably say, "they both exemplify their roles to win games," but that doesn't answer the question at all. It's just answering "What makes them great baseball players," with words that are synonymous with "great baseball player." Which of course answers nothing.

    Here’s a mathematical example. Take the formula: y = 2x. You can understand this formula without plugging anything into y and x, because you know that whatever you put into x will be doubled and become y. Sure, you can flesh it out more by actually plugging in values, and maybe even graphing the results, but that is just extra. The formula is the abstract representation of the relationship being graphed. You would argue that y = 2x is indeterminate until you start adding values for y and x. I think that demands a very particular understanding of “determinate”.

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  61. Josh:

    There are degrees of determination, which correspond to the degrees of generality. For example, take the following sentences:

    (5) Jack is moving.
    (6) Jack is athletic.
    (7) Jack is a sports player.
    (8) Jack is a baseball player.
    (9) Jack is a pitcher.
    (10) Jack is a pitcher who throws curveballs.

    I think that we would agree that (5) is less determinate than (10). However, would you say that (5) is indeterminate? I don’t think so, even though “moving” is quite general, and could mean a number of possible kinds of motion. Nonetheless, despite the fact that you can add details does not detract from the determinate nature of the movement in (5). In other words, you know that Jack is changing position in space-time. Sure, that sounds general, but you perfectly understand it, even without the specific details. I doubt that you would say that it “answers nothing”, if one asks, “What is Jack doing?” Sure, it doesn’t answer a lot, but it is not nothing.

    The key here: the common indeterminate concept contracts to each individual's determinate role, which is different between the two when it's predicated.

    I disagree. I think that “being a baseball player” has a determinate content. I don’t think that if someone asks, “What does Jack do?” and is answered, “Jack is a baseball player”, the other person would just stare at you in befuddlement, and ask, “What do you mean?”

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  62. But that is like saying that “animal” is indeterminate to a specific animal until you predicate it of a particular animal. Really? So, you cannot just talk about “animal” in general without bringing in particular animals? And how can you talk about “animal” without also talking about “vegetable”? And how can you talk about “vegetable” without talking about animate versus inanimate entities? So, to talk about anything, you have to bring in everything? That doesn’t seem right

    Animal is a univocal concept when predicated of two animals! How is this remotely a counterexample?

    Here’s a mathematical example.

    ? Really it's easier than all this. If I'm saying two different modes of baseball player are both great baseball players, and I ask why, and you say, because they exemplify their modes well in playing baseball, you've just parroted back to me. How do you not see that?

    It's just reiterating 'great baseball player' using different words, and it doesn't answer the question at all. The point is, to answer the question satisfactorily, you have to explicitly refer to the differing modes, showing that under the common notion, the two differ profoundly.

    I disagree. I think that “being a baseball player” has a determinate content. I don’t think that if someone asks, “What does Jack do?” and is answered, “Jack is a baseball player”, the other person would just stare at you in befuddlement, and ask, “What do you mean?

    Of course not. Once again, you are leaving predication out of two subjects, I really don't understand why. Plus, the predication was 'great baseball player,' which demands that we consider what great means in each subject. A univocal predication, as per Aquinas, would demand that they are great not only just according to the absolute concept of "exemplifying their functions, etc.", but according to their mode of exemplifying.

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  63. Josh wrote,

    the common indeterminate concept contracts to each individual's determinate role, which is different between the two when it's predicated.

    Succinct. Pristine. Beautiful.

    Thank you.

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  64. Josh:

    Animal is a univocal concept when predicated of two animals! How is this remotely a counterexample?

    But according to your line of reasoning, it is indeterminate, because to truly understand its content, you have to mention specific animals. And if you push this line of reasoning to its limit, then in order to understand anything, you have to understand everything, which is absurd. Just because you can better understand some concepts by providing examples does not mean that the concepts themselves are indeterminate. They are more determinate with specific examples, because the more specificity, the more determinateness, but this is a matter of degree, and not kind.

    ? Really it's easier than all this. If I'm saying two different modes of baseball player are both great baseball players, and I ask why, and you say, because they exemplify their modes well in playing baseball, you've just parroted back to me. How do you not see that?

    And you are just repeating the parody of Moliere with respect to final causes. Recall that he mocked final causality by saying the opium causes sleep, because of its dormitive power, which is supposed to not add anything to our knowledge. However, it does identify a deep metaphysical truth about opium, namely, that it has the power to perform a particular physical action in the world. You seem to agree with Moliere in that my saying that a good baseball player is one that exemplifies the function of his particular role in the baseball team to facilitate victory, is utterly empty and circular. This is not circular reasoning, but rather an abstract metaphysical point, which I’m sure you will agree with. Sure, you can flesh it out with details, but to complain that an abstract principle is not concrete enough is to commit a category error.

    Of course not. Once again, you are leaving predication out of two subjects, I really don't understand why. Plus, the predication was 'great baseball player,' which demands that we consider what great means in each subject. A univocal predication, as per Aquinas, would demand that they are great not only just according to the absolute concept of "exemplifying their functions, etc.", but according to their mode of exemplifying.

    But why that restriction? What justifies setting that limit? Why can’t the fact that they exemplify the same underlying abstract principle count as univocal? Why not also say that “animal” cannot be univocal, because it must also include the kind of animal that is exemplified by “animal”?

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  65. Glenn,

    Most gracious of you! Cheers

    Dguller,

    And you are just repeating the parody of Moliere with respect to final causes

    The people who bring that out don't think the tautology true, which is why they make a joke of it. On the contrary, I think your 'great baseball playing'='excellently exemplifying the roles to win games' is true, and completely uninformative with respect to describing what makes Willie Mays such in comparison to Sandy Koufax. It's a proportional similarity in each guy relative to how they accomplish hitting on the one hand, and pitching on the other.

    But why that restriction? What justifies setting that limit? Why can’t the fact that they exemplify the same underlying abstract principle count as univocal?

    Because according to the same abstract principle present in each, the activity is represented in different ways. It's not two concepts joined together, one different and one same. The question asked of the scenario is What is in the exemplification in each Koufax and Mays that makes us able to call them great?

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  66. Maybe a more fun example:

    Think about what it means to say "great musician" when predicated of J.S. Bach and John Lennon. They fall under the common notion of 'great musician,' but for your schema to work I need a univocal predication of this proper to each that doesn't just restate something uninformative, unless you then use that to prepare the ground to say something informative.

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  67. Since the Knasas citation seemed useful, here's some more text you might enjoy ruminating on:

    "As the Maritain texts make clear in their talk of ens as predicable of electrons and angels, analogy is an abstraction without precision. But one cannot leave it at that. Univocal concepts, for instance, 'man,' are also abstracted without precision [as contrasted with the abstraction with precision, 'humanity']. They too continue to 'hug' the instances sufficiently to be predicable of them. They also have an intimate relation with the differences of the instances. Cannot univocal concepts also be described as making an 'incomplete abstraction' from the instances? Complete abstraction would be the prerogative of precisive abstraction. In sum, need exists to describe more accurately the abstraction without precision of a univocal concept versus the abstraction without precision of an analogous concept. It is somewhat of a delicate affair. We do not want to describe analogical conceptualization so that univocal conceptualization becomes precisive; and we do not want to describe univocal conceptualization as so non-precisive that no logical room exists for analogical conceptualization.

    "Fortunately, Neo-Thomists have taken the lead here. One is Maritain himself in the texts cited. In contrast to univocal concepts, analogical concepts harbor an 'actual' multiplicity. Their abstraction is so incomplete that no 'dumbing down' of the multiplicity occurs. Not stated, but presumably the case, univocal concepts would harbor the differences of the instances only 'potentially,' not actually. Maritain does say that the univocal notion is 'invariant without actual multiplicity.' But this description of the analogical concept is unsatisfying. If in analogical conceptualization the multiplicity is left actual, in what sense can an abstraction be said to have occurred? Why are we not simply at the start of an abstraction rather than at its term? How can one express that an abstraction of an analogous commonality has occurred while conceding the actual presence of the multiplicity?

    "Another Neo-Thomist helps. In his Bond of Being: An Essay on Analogy and Existence, James Anderson says an analogous concept abstracts from its inferiors imperfectly 'so as to include them actually and implicitly.' Also, 'The analogical concept is radically different: it has only a relative or proportional unity, and it does not include the diversity of its inferiors potentially... In order that it may not be univocal in any degree, therefore, the analogical concept must include diversity actually, without in any way rendering that diversity explicitly.' Instead of employing just the terminological pair of actual/potential, Anderson enlists the further pair of implicit/explicit. with both pairs he can better articulate the nature of analogy versus univocity. The sameness-in-difference idea of analogical conceptualization is conveyed by saying that the abstracting keeps the differences of the instances actual though rendering them implicit. On the other hand, the sameness-apart-from-difference, characteristic of univocal non-precisive abstraction, is glossed as an abstracting that not only renders the differences implicit to the commonality but potential to the commonality as well. Because in both cases, the differences are rendered implicit, then in both cases the abstraction is non-precisive. But since in one case the implicitness is congruent with their actual presence, while in the other with their potential presence, the abstraction can be respectively analogical or univocal.

    continued...

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  68. "These descriptions of analogical conceptualization entail that it is an exceptionally fit tool for dealing faithfully with reality. No content of the instances is placed outside the concept. The abstractive dumbing down of the differences consists only in rendering the differences implicit, not also in rendering them potential. The conceptualization effects no impoverishment. In a science grounded in analogical concepts, one need not fear that the concepts have left something out. Rather, the concepts present an intelligible world that can be patiently explored on the basis of the offered analogates. Progress in science consists not in substituting new concepts for the old, but in an ever deepening understanding of old concepts." (ibid., p. 136-8)

    "Within the above general notion of analogy as sameness-in-difference, Aquinas distinguishes types of analogy. The principle of distinction is the manner in which the analogon is found in its analogates. If the analogon is found in the instances according to a priority and a posteriority, one finds the first type of analogy. A non-metaphysical example of this first type might be what is meant by holiness as it is ideally realized in Christ and subsequently realized in some follower. Here no one instance is the embodiment of the analogous notion itself. Presumably God the Father is that. Nevertheless, Christ is an ideal realization of it, while the follower is a realization derivative from an imitation of Christ.

    "On the other hand, if the analogon is found without reference between the analogates, that is, with a certain equality, one finds a second type of analogy. A non-metaphysical example again is what we mean by sanctity as that is realized among Teresa of Avila, Francis Xavier, Augustine, and so on. In their differences all these followers of Christ express sanctity among themselves. Yet no reference of one to the other exists. Among themselves each is an independent realization of the analogous notion...

    "Aquinas has names for these two types of analogy. He labels the first analogy of proportion, and the second analogy of proportionality." (p. 146; cf. De Ver. 2, 11c)

    "As mentioned, an analogon, understood as a sameness-in-difference, possesses an astonishing intelligible wealth and plentitude. This wealth and plentitude superabounds the parade of its analogates. As I said, after decades of watching the game of baseball, would anyone be so foolish to claim that he has seen all there is to great baseball playing? The foolishness of such an individual in 1930 is now apparent. So too for him in 1970, 1990. And how could we excuse ourselves in 2000? Yet as ample as the intelligible plentitude of great baseball player is, it is not infinite. Some items are not and never wil be analogates of this analogon. For example, unique as my way of playing baseball is, it will never be a difference that will carry greatness. Also, trees, flowers, and four-legged animals will never be analogates of the analogon. So though its richness is awesome, great baseball player is not all-encompassing. Some differences are impermeable to this sameness; not all things are its analogates.

    continued...

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  69. "Can the same be said of the analogon that is the ratio entis? As was noted from De Ver. 1, 1c, being is the concept into which all others are resolved. Those others include the ten genera of substance and the various accidents. The differences that mark the accidents also present the analogon of being. The chasm between them and substance is not so wide that being fails to cross it. Elsewhere Aquinas refers to an accident as an ens entis. Nor is it necessary that the accidents be physical accidents and not immaterial activities such as thought and willing. These too Aquinas ascribes to the study of metaphysics, whose subject is ens inquantum ens. Even mental items like privations and negations also are regarded as falling within being. Finally, the perfection of the ratio entis is reflected in Aquinas' later remarks about its key note of esse or actus essendi. Esse is the 'act of all acts and the perfection of all perfections,' and 'all perfections pertain to the perfection of being [perfectio essendi].' So unlike other analogons, being has an all-perfect or infinite intelligible wealth and plentitude. Among analogons it deserves a special and distinctive name. Maritain remarks that the Scholastics called being a 'transcendental.' Being is an intelligibility that contains the differences of all things not just implicitly and potentially (implicite et potentialiter), as generic notions do. Being contains the abysmal differences of things implicitly and actually." (p. 148-9)

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  70. Josh:

    The people who bring that out don't think the tautology true, which is why they make a joke of it. On the contrary, I think your 'great baseball playing'='excellently exemplifying the roles to win games' is true, and completely uninformative with respect to describing what makes Willie Mays such in comparison to Sandy Koufax. It's a proportional similarity in each guy relative to how they accomplish hitting on the one hand, and pitching on the other.

    “Completely uninformative”? Look at the following definition:

    X is good = X actualizes its nature to a maximal degree towards reaching its final cause

    Is it also “completely uninformative”? Do you learn absolutely nothing from it? Or, do you learn the formal structure to any discussion of “goodness”, which is certainly not “completely uninformative”. Sure, you’d want to know more information, such as what is X doing, what is X’s nature, how much actualization has occurred, what is its final cause, and so on, but that simply builds upon the foundational structure in the above definition.

    Because according to the same abstract principle present in each, the activity is represented in different ways. It's not two concepts joined together, one different and one same. The question asked of the scenario is What is in the exemplification in each Koufax and Mays that makes us able to call them great?

    Again, that skips the last question I had in the paragraph you cited. I asked: “Why not also say that “animal” cannot be univocal, because it must also include the kind of animal that is exemplified by “animal”?”

    Think about it. Take the following:

    (1) A lion is like a tiger

    We agree that for this to be possible, a lion and a tiger must share something in common. I think that we would agree that could be the fact that they are both animals. So, I can further say:

    (2) A lion is an animal
    (3) A tiger is an animal

    My contention is that “animal” in (2) and (3) means the same thing, and you would agree. However, why couldn’t I just pull the move that you keep doing here? I should be able to say: “No, no. But how they express their animality is different in both. The ‘activity is represented in different ways’, and thus they cannot be univocal.” That is certainly just as true in this case as in the cases that you have mentioned. So, why in this case does this fact become irrelevant, but in the other cases, become incredibly relevant?

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  71. Josh:

    Because according to the same abstract principle present in each, the activity is represented in different ways. It's not two concepts joined together, one different and one same. The question asked of the scenario is What is in the exemplification in each Koufax and Mays that makes us able to call them great?

    Another thought about this.

    I think that we differ in that I see determinateness as a matter of degree, and you see it as a matter of kind. A maximal amount of determinateness occurs at the level of a particular instantiation. For example, when I say that “the dog is black”, this is maximally determinate, because it refers to a particular dog with a particular color (although, there is some indeterminateness in the color, because there are different shades of black). When I say “a dog is black”, then there is less determinateness, because “a dog” could refer to multiple possible dogs. However, it is not indeterminate, because it still determines something with a dog nature, and not a cat nature, or a squirrel nature, and so on. When I say, “a mammal is black”, then there is even less determinateness, because the set of “mammals” is larger than the set of “dogs”, and thus there are more possible particular referents to this statement. So, the more general, the less determinate, and the more specific, the more determinate.

    If you accept this framework, then when you apply it to statements like:

    (1) Jack is a great baseball player
    (2) Jack is a great pitcher

    you see that (1) is more general, and thus less determinate, than (2). However, it does not follow that (1) is indeterminate. Furthermore, (2) is not even maximally determinate, because you could then ask specific questions, such as what it is about Jack’s pitching that makes it great? Does he have a great fastball? A great curveball? Great endurance on the mound? Few injuries? Great shoulder rotation? Great wrist flexibility? You can go as specific as you like, which would just increase the determinateness. However, just because you can go more specific does not mean that everything more general is indeterminate. It is just less determinate.

    Finally, (2) implies (1), although (1) does not imply (2). Why? Because (1) is the general category within which (2) occurs. And because we can refer meaningfully to this category, we can compare the specific instances to one another, because they share this category in common. And since we can meaningfully talk about this common category, you can have univocal meaning, unless you bring it extra conditions that don’t seem to be justified, such as you cannot have univocal meaning between two terms if they are different instantiations of a common category, which would undermine basically every analogy known to man, making them all incapable of univocal meaning.

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  72. Since you're talking about Aquinas and concepts I wanted to ask your opinion of the following criticism laid against Aquinas in the History of Western Philosophy by russell. It attacks Aquinas' discussion of God's essence and existence. Here's the quote:

    "“The contentions that God’s essence and existence are one and the same. That God is His own goodness, His own power, and so on, suggest a confusion, found in Plato, but supposed to have been avoided by Aristotle, between the manner of being of particulars and the manner of being of universals. God’s essence is, one must suppose, of the manner of universals, while His existence is not. It is difficult to state this difficulty satisfactorily, since it occurs within a logic that can no longer be accepted. But it points clearly to some kind of syntactical confusion, without which much of the argumentation about God would lose its plausibility.”

    I'm not sure if there is any veracity in the criticism myself as russell is being vague here. What is a bit confusing is that he insist that God's essence must be understood in the manner of universals whereas his existence should not. Is this dichotomy justified? Is he misreading Aquinas? Ignoring the doctrine of analogy completely in the predication of God's power and goodness?

    I must admit I am a little puzzled by what this criticism even means. Also, how would the Thomist respond to this criticism?

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